Can I use Public Domain Film Music? in Poverty Row Forum

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Can I use Public Domain Film Music?

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Count Zachula	Can I use Public Domain Film Music?	Lead	[-]
Mar 26 11 5:21 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Hey guys! So I'm currently working on my thesis film, its my final year at The School of Visual Arts for traditional animation. My thesis is a 5 minute film inspired by classic horror, especially the Universal films. To make my film feel as authentic as possible I was planning on using music from old public domain films, since no one owns them and I wouldn't have to pay to use the music, it would be ok, right? Here's some of the public domain films I chose music from: -Swamp Women -The Ape -The Screaming Skull -A Shriek in the Night -Attack of the Giant Leeches -The Vampire Bat -Last Man on Earth -Daughter of Horror (Dementia) -The Devil's Hand Any consensus from you guys about this would be most helpful! Thanks! Last Edited By: Count Zachula Mar 26 11 5:28 PM. Edited 1 time.
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horrorfilmx		#1	[-]
Mar 26 11 6:55 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Tricky subject. The fact that a movie is in public domain doesn't necessarily mean the music in it is. Also the music itself may be public domain but a given performance of it may not be --- for example I have beside me a recording of Prokofiev's "Romeo and Juliet" performed by the Montreal Symphony Orchestra, and while the music is PD the Montreal Symphony probably retains the rights to this particular version of it. You should with the Copyright Office. You can do a search on-line and its free. Also there are many sites on the web where you can download public domain music at no charge. (On the other hand a five minute thesis film??? You're probably under the radar.)
Count Zachula		#2	[-]
Mar 26 11 7:19 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Well the music from those films are being directly taken from said films, I'm literally converting the films into MP3's so I can cut the music from them. I'm not taking them from another recording or anything. And what do you mean by "I'm under the radar" ?
horrorfilmx		#3	[-]
Mar 26 11 10:13 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I mean the chances of being "caught" and penalized are probably pretty slight.
TomWeaver999		#4	[-]
Mar 26 11 10:55 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Not everything in a public domain film is public domain. If I write a song and sing it and record it and copyright it, and Joe Blow gives me 1000 bucks to play it in the background in a scene in his movie, but then Mr. Blow's movie goes p.d., you can't take my song out of his movie and do what you want with it. Mr. Blow's dopey copyright screw-up on his movie doesn't affect my legit copyright on my song. At least, that's the way I THINK it works.
Count Zachula		#5	[-]
Mar 26 11 11:40 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Well I plan to enter my film in festivals, if the music IS copyrighted, I'd have to have the rights in order to enter it, or else the festival people might catch me. Also I'm not talking about specific songs for movies, I'm talking about themes and scores that were most likely written for a specific film. Oh well, I guess I'll have to look up the copyrights and all.
David Schecter		#6	[-]
Mar 26 11 11:50 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I have been involved in licensing deals regarding a few of the titles above, as clients of mine composed and/or published the music. You can hire somebody to do the copyright research for you. I seem to recall some of the music might have been independently copyrighted apart from the film, meaning that if the film goes PD, the compositions do not. And as others said, if the music was originally composed for another movie that is still under copyright and re-used in the later film, the later film's going PD doesn't mean the composition is PD. Unfortunately, I can't recall what is what off-hand because I worked on copyright issues regarding some of these films almost a decade ago. Are you using the original music tracks or having somebody newly perform the music?
Count Zachula		#7	[-]
Mar 27 11 1:18 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I'm using the original musical tracks from the films. If some of them end up being copyrighted, how would I be able to contact whoever owns them to see if I can use them in my film?
Ted Newsom		#8	[-]
Mar 27 11 11:11 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Oh, don't sweat it. If there's a problem, THEY'll contact YOU. Asking permission opens a big bag o'worms, too. The listed composer (and/or his estate) may NOT have any rights to the music after all. But if you go to someone's grandkid and ask to license grampa's music from Devil Monster's Daughter Runs Wild, betcha dollars to doughnuts they'd be happy to take your money. Or going through ASCAP, which undoubtedly does have a music publisher on record for the film(s). And you'll no doubt find the rights have been gobbled up by a giant conglomerate lilke EMI, which will charge you top dollar, regardless of whether there is any real copyright protection on the work. In practical terms, you are probably fine using the music in the way you've described. There are potholes in the road as described above, but for the purpose of exhibiting a short in a festival, if you vouchsafe that you have researched the subject and found the sources to be in the public domain, the festivals will probably take your word for it.
Count Zachula		#9	[-]
Mar 27 11 4:16 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	That seems plausable. I just wouldn't want anything to happen to my film, if it gets banned from festivals or anything. I guess I shouldn't credit the composers or films I took the music from just in case someone looks it up and demands money for it?
David Schecter		#10	[-]
Mar 27 11 4:37 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I was not talking about any composer having rights -- I'm talking about the music publisher who would own any copyrights. Sounds like you have brilliant ethics, Count Zachula. Already devising ways of covering your tracks in case what you're doing is illegal. I'm so proud to be sharing a board with you! If you ever use any of our masters or publishing, please don't come crying to me saying "I didn't know! I didn't know!" This thread shows you know all too well what is the right thing to do, what is the wrong thing to do, and you are making your choice to listen to the little Devil on your shoulder rather than the little Angel on your other shoulder. Ted -- I know you have gone after those you felt were taking from your intellectual property, so I'm not sure why you would take the side of the person who wants to do a similar thing possibly regarding somebody else's intellectual property. Is it all about the liklihood of getting caught or not? When I took my ethics class, I don't recall "odds of getting caught" as being relevant to proper or improper ethics...
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Ted Newsom		#11	[-]
Mar 27 11 6:16 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	David, it's a hypothetical little short destined for perhaps a half-dozen exhibitions in film festivals. That's not an egregious infringement of rights, assuming its an infringement at all. He's not asking, for instance, "If I swipe music from Monstrous Movie Music, can I get away with it?" Then I'd raise hell. I'm not keen on wrongful use of anyone's intellectual property. But it is very much a sliding scale. PHANTOM FROM 10,000 LEAGUES is a good example from the Perma catalog. The film is PD, period. The score was separately copyrighted, and, I think I seem to recall the score was actually copyrighted before the film was, several months after it was completed (and screened for the trades), but before the film was broadly shown and finally registered. So-- does that mean someone putting out the movie on DVD therefore has the right to use a loop from the music on the DVD title menu? I'd say not. But someone did. Was it worth pursuing? No.
Tom Powers		#12	[-]
Mar 27 11 8:38 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Try some of the Free Usage (usually for non-commercial projects, with attribution) sites for tracks. http://incompetech.com http://derekaudette.ottawaarts.com/music.php If you don't find anything you can use, I have some stuff I did on MIDI that might fit your film. I wouldn't take chances on uncleared music.
Count Zachula		#13	[-]
Mar 27 11 11:07 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Whoa, David, please, I'm not trying to be sleezball about this! I didn't mean to arouse any negative comments. I'm not keen on wrongful use of intellectual property either. What Ted is saying, I kind of agree with, I'm just a student, making a short film looking to enter into some festivals. But it seems its a really tricky subject and I really wouldn't want to risk anything, this being my first film and all. I thought I'd ask a genuine horror film board what they thought. Please, lets not be hostile. I was actually thinking about asking you some questions about this, since you seem to know what you're talking about, but hopefully I haven't made enemies this fast! Tom, thank you for the links! I will definitely look them over. Can I check out what you have MIDI by any chance? I'm just looking for that classic horror feeling.
GaryP11111		#14	[-]
Mar 28 11 2:27 AM Burgomaster Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Zachula, there are some online entities that offer library music. Your film is only five minutes long; these companies have short clips that can be relatively inexpensive. You can listen to segments online and then place your order with a few clicks of your mouse. I pointed out some clips that had a vintage horror vibe to Joe Busam who produced the Monster Kid Home Movies DVD and you can hear some of them backing some of the home monster movies on the DVD. It's a cheap way to get legit, licensed music for your work. I'll see if I can find a link to the company that was used. And you won't have to spend time cleaning up the sound from the old, scratchy source material you were considering. GARY L. PRANGE "Sic gorgiamus allos subjectos nunc." Check out my YouTube Video of the Week! (updated 8-3-09) Last Edited By: GaryP11111 Mar 28 11 2:31 AM. Edited 2 times.
Count Zachula		#15	[-]
Mar 28 11 3:04 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Gary, that would be FANTASTIC! Thank you so much! :]
Wich2		#16	[-]
Mar 28 11 9:11 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Count, just Google around a bit for "Free" and "Open Source" Sound online. There are several no charge, or cheap, sfx and music elements out there. Last Edited By: Wich2 Mar 28 11 7:11 PM. Edited 1 times.
Tom Powers		#17	[-]
Mar 28 11 3:30 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Count Zachula, if you want to contact me via the board mail, and include an e-mail, I can send some .mp3s. I don't have them posted online.
Count Zachula	THANKS!	#18	[-]
Mar 31 11 2:32 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Hey guys, thanks for all your advice. I think what I'm going to end up doing is two different cuts of the audio, one with the public domain film music to have for myself and maybe put up online sometime in the future, and then one with royalty free music for submitting to festivals, my school made a deal with a music site where all senior students can access the music for free. If anyone's interested, here's some info about my film: http://snaggle-toothsalad...010/10/blenderstein.html Here's a screen shot...
Tom Powers		#19	[-]
Mar 31 11 7:37 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Best of Luck with it!
Ted Newsom		#20	[-]
Apr 1 11 8:14 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Very Ren-and-Stimpyish!
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Can I use Public Domain Film Music?

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