Kong's missing Spider scene in Kong - 8th Wonder of the World Forum

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Kong's missing Spider scene

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BartPierce		#441	[-]
Dec 10 11 11:36 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	There is only one collector rumor (which I am reluctant to pass on because I have been unable to trace it), but, since you asked here it is. A collector offered a 16mm print of the missing Spider Pit footage to Warner Bros.at a price they were unwilling to pay. I have no follow up information on this. However, if I did, I would keep it close to the vest in hopes of negotiating with the person who had the material. There does exist some other information (no I'm not ready to share) that suggests that there is some 16mm material out there. I apologize for being so obtuse in my response, but I will gladly share when that will not interfere with location and possible acquisition.
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BartPierce		#442	[-]
Dec 11 11 12:45 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I found this piece of info for you. Afraid its only of use as a rumor. This was a posting on Amazon about 6 years ago: i have the spider scene-warner does not want to pay, February 16, 2005 Reviewer: E. Kelly "video maven" (ny) - See all my reviews the scene in question is 1:37.its not in great shape and 16mm.but with all the technical advances it can be fixed. but warners does not want to meet my price.
G Vallejo		#443	[-]
Dec 11 11 1:13 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I've heard that rumor, and we mentioned that amazon seller story in our spider pit article. Both are groundless without proof, and there ain't any. Besides, if the stuff's going to show up, it'll be on 35mm. The only way it'd ever show up on 16mm is if the 35mm footage somehow got smuggled out of the studio, and this person then struck a 16mm print off it and either gave it to someone or else kept it for himself. Then this person or persons would have to keep it a deep dark secret for decades. Said person would then have to approach Warner Brothers with an extortion offer, then disappear again when they didn't meet his price... if money was what they really wanted, someone would surely meet their price on ebay alone. A perfect Monster has no end...
BartPierce		#444	[-]
Dec 11 11 1:35 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	The only way it'd ever show up on 16mm is if the 35mm footage somehow got smuggled out of the studio, and this person then struck a 16mm print off it and either gave it to someone or else kept it for himself. _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ There are countries that use 16mm prints for projection. The Philippines is one of them. Portions of Europe have used 16mm prints for many years. Reduction prints from 35 mm prints was in no way and uncommon practice in any of these countries. In addition more than one film collector has had a 16mm reduction print made of sections of the 35mm print that had scenes they did not have if they found good 35mm copies. The strong likelihood is that if the print exists with collectors it is a 16mm that would've been made from a 35mm nitrate. I'm not saying it was made. I'm saying it being 16mm is a strong likelihood.
BartPierce		#445	[-]
Dec 11 11 1:38 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Here's another report of some time ago that said the rumor mill. Again I have found no corroborating evidence of this particular incident, but, it certainly supports the likelihood that somehow he print with the spider pit sequence got out. http://monsterkidclassich...pider-Pit-Article?page=7 ClaytonVanMarch wrote: ________________________________________ Kinescope Korner wrote: ________________________________________ Thankyou for sharing this with us-wonderful! I'll share a story with you all. Now my Dad isn't a film buff, just a blue collar worker, and he saw KONG in 33 when it played in either NYC or Staten Island. Growing up of course we watched it to death on WOR Channel 9 (NY) so it became a standard thing to view around Thanksgiving Day. When we moved to Middletown NJ in 71 we discovered, one town over, in RED BANK, there was a revival house called The Cinema 3 which ran old films. In the early seventies Dad and I saw the restored Kong with the extra footage and later, sitting in the Middletown Diner, Dad questioned "Where was the big spider I remember seeing?" I never mentioned the cut scene so I was naturally thunderstruck. Dad insisted he saw it in 33 (I showed the Famous Monster pic to him and said that was sort of what he recalled). We called Forry Ackerman (several years later when the subject came up and I had Ack's number by then) who lost it on the phone after hearing this news. Dad looking at me with the look 'Why'?? am I listening AND telling him about this AGAIN????'. Years later, now in his late eighties, Dad saw the recreated scene from Peter Jackson and said that was pretty close to what he remembers. The bottom line is there was obviously more than one preview print shipped out and one was lost in the shuffle. So, the people who say the spider pit scene was never filmed, here we have another witness to testify that it was. Not to mention PJ thinks it was shot, and he's a smart fella, Ray Bradbury saw it, his buddy Harryhausen believes it was shot, Cooper's first testimony(he said it was cut for pacing reasons, and that Jack's reaction of horror was of the spiders), the countless Asians and Europeans who remember it and still claim it exists intact in their countries today, publicity for the scene(the photos), and O'Brien stating that it was the smoothest animation they did and his favorite sequence and wishing they had not cut it out. Oh, and the obvious cut in the film itself after Kong roars, Jack is looking down, then the score jumps a bit, we have Jack looking up at Kong, Kong having even calmed down a bit - a pretty big splicing error for supposedly "untampered" footage, don't ya think? It's gotta be out there! It's gotta be! I agree. Like I said, my father is NOT a film buff and he brought the subject up to me and later talked to Ackerman (Pop had the impression this scene was in all the prints of Kong but was cut later. He even, come to think about it, also talked to Forry about MURDER BY THE CLOCK which scared the bejesus outta him also as a kid!). For myself, I think a preview print was shipped out with the rest (and Forry had repeatidly told getting letters from a young fan about seeing the scenes overseas when he was a kid too!).
JadeExecutioner		#446	[-]
Dec 11 11 6:53 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	G Vallejo wrote: I've heard that rumor, and we mentioned that amazon seller story in our spider pit article. Both are groundless without proof, and there ain't any. Besides, if the stuff's going to show up, it'll be on 35mm. The only way it'd ever show up on 16mm is if the 35mm footage somehow got smuggled out of the studio, and this person then struck a 16mm print off it and either gave it to someone or else kept it for himself. Then this person or persons would have to keep it a deep dark secret for decades. Said person would then have to approach Warner Brothers with an extortion offer, then disappear again when they didn't meet his price... if money was what they really wanted, someone would surely meet their price on ebay alone. Precisely. Then disappointed after having failed in his negotiations with Warner, our mysterious collector would decide to go ranting on amazon? Hmmm. Very unlikely, if not totally absurd. That's why I was asking Bart if he knew of other trails that would have more validity, because all these well known pseudo-collectors comments, (or for that matters "sightings" in Philippines, Copenhagen, Nice, and so on) all those we heard for years and that spread on the web are fantasies, failing memory or just plain lies that lead to dead ends. I don't believe there is today someone holding onto that reel of film knowing what it is and keeping it "a dark secret", as Vallejo says. In our times, it would have leaked for sure. I would love to be proved wrong and that in the end, it is here, but i don't think it is. Also, is there records about what happened to the test reel? Was it officially thrown away or destroyed? I can imagine Cooper cutting the spider sequence, but always wondered why the Creation footage survived (and how for that matters) and that test reel didn't.
BartPierce		#447	[-]
Dec 11 11 6:42 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	As you're, no doubt aware, most of the original test reel that was shot for the RKO executives is in the film (from end of bronto sequence to vulture flying off dead T Rex). If you have had dealings with true, avid film collectors (and they trust you) you have seen prints with portions not available in contemporary prints. I can state this with unequivical certainty because I have managed to return some of this material to public view. It is not beyond the pale to believe that a collector has this material. It is unfortunate but not totally unlikely.
G Vallejo		#448	[-]
Dec 12 11 1:50 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	BartPierce wrote: As you're, no doubt aware, most of the original test reel that was shot for the RKO executives is in the film (from end of bronto sequence to vulture flying off dead T Rex). If you have had dealings with true, avid film collectors (and they trust you) you have seen prints with portions not available in contemporary prints. I can state this with unequivical certainty because I have managed to return some of this material to public view. It is not beyond the pale to believe that a collector has this material. It is unfortunate but not totally unlikely. Not available in contemporary prints. For a collector to have footage (in any hypothetical movie, not Kong for this instance) not circulating currently in the public arena, they must have had access to an original circulating uncut print, or they knew someone and got the footage from an official or next-to-official source. Neither of which (a circulating print with bugs, or that someone inside/outside RKO ever had it) has ever been reported in this case. Doesn't mean it never happened, but... Cooper was quite adamant that the footage was never included in any print released anywhere. That reduces the odds significantly that it went out to the Philippines or anywhere else. By the way, I don't think there's ever been any other sighting in the Philippines/Asia besides Forry's pen pal mentioning it. I would need to see at least one other contemporary sighting before I would even begin to think of the Philippines as a lead. As for your previous post about Bradbury, technically it's not a "rumor" that he saw it... he has stated in print that he saw it, so we know that he thinks he saw it. Maybe I'm wrong and Ray and this other guy's father did see it... maybe... I'd like to think it's out there, but what probably happened is this: back in the days before VCRs and TIVO you had to make an effort to see a movie when it was available. When it was out of the theaters, most people had to wait years before they saw a film again, if ever (before TV came along, at least). I think Ray Bradbury must have seen the film, and then at some point he read the novel, or even later than that he saw the spider/lizard pic from Famous Monsters. He was so taken by the imagery (either from the book or the photo) that it seemed perfectly right to him that he saw the spider scene in the film, and over the years he actually thought he'd seen it. Don't forget, he had many years for this process to take effect. Then, he sees the movie again, and is puzzled to see it's gone. I used to think Ray must have seen the sequence at some point, until I discovered it was edited out before the movie was scored. While it was still possible that he might have somehow seen a work print in a Tuscon, AZ theater--somehow--the odds of that are extremely low. Too* low when it's much more likely that he just mis-remembered he remembered it. I'm not trying to argue with you or shoot down any of your theories for the fun of it... just playing Devil's Advocate and helping to work the kinks out. I think the wisest course of action is checking out any place RKO might have stored anything from 1933 to the late 50s, and maybe even later than that. Trolling the Phillipines (in the original sense of the word) would not be the best use of any resources, in my opinion. * by or that someone inside/outside RKO ever had it I mean I don't think anybody's ever touched the footage since Cooper did whatever he did with the cut footage. He put it somewhere and that may be the last time someone touched it that knew what they were touching. If it got moved it was probably moved in bulk with other reels/boxes, or else some 9-to-5 slob moved it and then got old and died without ever knowing that people were looking for this stuff. That it survives the cutting room floor is pretty certain... Cooper said the footage was there when he left RKO. A perfect Monster has no end... Last Edited By: G Vallejo Dec 12 11 1:52 AM. Edited 1 times.
BartPierce		#449	[-]
Dec 12 11 5:58 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Not available in contemporary prints. For a collector to have footage (in any hypothetical movie, not Kong for this instance) not circulating currently in the public arena, they must have had access to an original circulating uncut print, or they knew someone and got the footage from an official or next-to-official source. Neither of which (a circulating print with bugs, or that someone inside/outside RKO ever had it*) has ever been reported in this case. Doesn't mean it never happened, but... _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ As the Angels advocate: I would love to check out any RKO storage areas (or former storage areas). I have been extremely successful in the past finding missing footage in his way. But I do not have official access through RKO (as been pointed out in this site before) . If I did I would try to track down former storage areas and I would probably check cans of the MOST DANGEROUS GAME and SON OF KONG and perhaps even a few other cans labeled as RKO films of the 30s in any storage areas, arcane or otherwise, I could find. This might prove fruitful, but there are others who had the opportunity to do this and it is my hope they made a thorough effort. I may later make an attempt at following this trail, but it will require more politics than research. The politics is a far more difficult path that the research. I believe the popular belief is that the footage that Cooper said was left at RKO was likely destroyed in the fire. We don't know if the footage Cooper referred to was the original negative or a print, but we do know that it existed. It is even possible that someone screened the footage sometime prior to the fire. Different studios have different rules at different times as to who has access to prints to be screened. When I was working for 20th Century Fox a long print (probably the last existing full-length print) of Bob Wise's SAND PEBBLES was sent out for several times for screenings. It was returned as the short version. My speculation is that print is in the hands of a collector. It may even have had copies made (at least of the missing sections). However, 20th Century Fox no longer has a copy of this Road Show Version. I know. I spent months trying to locate it for Bob Wise. It is my contention that the Spider Pit footage did escape to be shown in some other vistas (perhaps some more arcane vistas). I have a nice collection of people who have reported seeing this footage. Most of them saw it very early during the first release. Others (and there's more than two or three) have reported seeing it much later in the 70s and 80s. These are the cases I've been following up most closely. They are promising. I'm sorry that this is as forthright as I can be right now. I'm trying to avoid being attacked with the same old arguments until I am in a position to share something more concrete than is presently available. I assure you I will share as soon as I can as long as it doesn't risk the release of the footage.
JadeExecutioner		#450	[-]
Dec 12 11 8:59 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I hope you didn't take my interrogations as attacks, Bart. My broken english may sound a bit dry but I totally support what you're doing. I was just wondering if there were other more interesting leads than those old dead end rumors, that's all. As Vallejo says, "helping to work the kinks out". And I understand that it is useless for you to reveal any of those leads as long as it may compromise your research. I have been for a long time fascinated by the Philippines rumor and will soon have the opportunity to check a few things there by myself. But it's more for the fun of it than in the idea that it will bear any result. There are a few big film collectors there who have been supporting the Film archive initiative. If anyone knows at least precisely how the film was distributed there, it's certainly them. I'm following this lead, even though everything goes against it. First I don't believe that the sequence was in any print that was distributed anywhere. And even if it was, the least possible place for it to survive would have been South East Asia. What was not completely destroyed (as in the case of Hong Kong, a big platform city for distribution) by the Japanese army during WWII was more than often left rotting, in territories where preserving films was not exactly a priority. I don't even know if there actually is a print of King Kong from 1933 in the whole continent (although I can imagine Sir Run Run Shaw having one among his collections). But. My hypothesis would be that if the scene survived, it would be as a separate reel, possibly 16mm print, that could have then followed any route and ending up in any collections or archives. There are several collections in the South East Asian region that have for sure not been searched at all. Even if we don't give any validity to the Ackerman pen pal rumor, it's still worth taking a look. Last Edited By: JadeExecutioner Dec 12 11 9:03 AM. Edited 1 times.
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Ted Newsom		#451	[-]
Dec 12 11 11:43 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	The spider sequence... that's the one with the lap-dissolve showing the spider getting old and turning green, right? Guys... at some point when there's verifiable information it existed in any version, then you've got a reason for searching for that long-lost 16mm Filipino reduction print. Memory is plastic and mutable, especially in Ray Bradbury's case.
HalLane		#452	[-]
Dec 12 11 11:57 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	G Vallejo wrote: If it got moved it was probably moved in bulk with other reels/boxes, or else some 9-to-5 slob moved it and then got old and died without ever knowing that people were looking for this stuff. That it survives the cutting room floor is pretty certain... Cooper said the footage was there when he left RKO. Wouldn't it be funny if Lucy & Desi sold it for stock footage and it turned up in a music video, like the SCARLET CLAW outtake: http://monsterkidclassich...movie-clip-in-this-video Start scouring those Ziggy Stardust videos!
BartPierce	The spider sequence... that's the one with the lap-dissolve showing the spider getting old and turning green, right?	#453	[-]
Dec 12 11 8:25 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	The spider sequence... that's the one with the lap-dissolve showing the spider getting old and turning green, right? _______________________________________________________________________________________________ That only happens in old vampire movies, Ted. Here it is the dreaded vinegar syndrome we fear the most.
BartPierce		#454	[-]
Dec 12 11 8:32 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	No Jade, I didn’t interpret your comments as attacks. This site is a welcome source of spirited discussion and knowledge to me and others. I know you’re familiar with many of our earlier discussions on this thread. There are a lot of very knowledgeable and passionate individuals on these pages whom I respect and enjoy and they have supplied me with other very valid and insightful points of view that have been very helpful and instructive. I believe that the more information that is out there the greater the likelihood of these materials coming to light. I’m glad to hear you’re making an effort to take a look yourself. My experience is that being able to give a clear picture of the material you’re looking for (16mm, 35mm, nitrate, full print or short reel) to the people you’re speaking to helps facilitate they’re help. I posted this piece on another site to let people know the difficulties involved in locating lost footage. I hope it might help you. And please don’t let any of this discourage you. Sometimes a simple and sincere request in the right ear is as effective as all the power of a large company. Good Luck! Here it is: Unfortunately only the legal licensors of KONG can make requests of these film vaults. To add to the problem, Kong has changed legal hands over the years, both in the U.S and in the various countries around the world. Just since the 1980s the rights to KONG were transferred from MGM/UA to Turner Broadcasting to Warner Bros. Similar distribution rights issues have occurred in a variety of oversees countries. When these exchanges occur, and films are shifted physically or legally to other parties, sometimes materials are not perfectly transferred to the new owner. But once the legal transfer has taken place the opportunity and right to go back and look again for lost material is impossible without the authorization of the former owner who has no financial interest to drive them. This is not to mention, most companies are not hot on the idea of allowing another company routing around in their property and past records (Would you want your major competitors to be going through your detailed past?). Unless there is some driving financial (ex: setting technical standards for digital distribution) or political (ex: broad popular opinion) reason these companies do not come together. The major studios have been ferocious competitors for 100 years. This is how things get lost. The preservationist is not granted the opportunity to look even when there may be compelling evidence because there is no political or financial juice to motivate those that may have legal access. A good example of political and financial interest is the recent release/restoration of KING KONG 1933. Warner Bros. was releasing a new multimillion dollar movie: KING KONG 2005, directed by the highly in demand, Peter Jackson. Jackson was wooed to Warner because he loved the original KING KONG 1933 and had a lifelong desire to remake it. The political wooing of PJ led to the high profile restoration of KING KONG 1933 which also served a financial interest by promoting the upcoming release of the new KING KONG 2005 as well as giving good press for spending so much time and money on a publicly popular restoration. And Warners did a wonderful job. But even Warners did not have the juice to check every nook and cranny. Warner chose to give Peter Jackson a lot of money to completely recreate the Spider Pit Sequence by recreating archaic film processes (a wonderful act of film archeology) rather than face the uncertain political morass of searching the worldwide archives they had no legal or political access to. The recent location of a previously unknown piece of silent film era stop motion animation was discovered because an animator happened to see a marked film can while he was in a film vault for another reason. Sheer luck (and an informed pair of eyes). That said, these political morasses can be untangled by finding the proper string to pull. Find the string and know how to pull it. This site is one of the important strings. It shines a light on the knots and leads the way. And it’s also a lot of fun.
Tim Hammell		#455	[-]
Dec 12 11 9:22 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Its an interesting quest and discussion. I have no leads or info to lead to anything but one avenue of research might be prints sent to military bases and places like the DEW Line outposts. I was thinking more Alaska and Canadian Arctic but there were bases all over the world. As a lad in the '60's in Whitehorse, Yukon Territory, I saw many matinees at the town's commercial theatre and the Air Force base quonset hut theatre, but not KK that I can recall.
Wich2		#456	[-]
Dec 12 11 11:34 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Tim, that would be a solid policy, except for what Ted said: >at some point when there's verifiable information it existed in any version, then you've got a reason for searching< There's no proof whatsoever that the sequence ever made it into any release print. It seems the only - the ONLY - hope is that someone in the tech department, or some collector who got an inside track, stole the pre-release edit trims.
Tim Hammell		#457	[-]
Dec 13 11 1:29 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I see, yes, I wasn't quite grasping that sticking point, "verifiable" being the key word. I should clarify a lot of what I saw in the '60's at the quonset hut was old '30's, '40's and '50's films of everything from Laurel & Hardy, Stooges, westerns, Flash Gordon, Tarzan, etc. not that that means anything. Last Edited By: Tim Hammell Dec 13 11 1:41 AM. Edited 1 times.
HalLane		#458	[-]
Dec 13 11 5:56 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Wich2 wrote: It seems the only - the ONLY - hope is that someone in the tech department, or some collector who got an inside track, stole the pre-release edit trims. OR that possibly the rightful owners disposed of said trims legally, i.e. sold as stock footage, a la ONE MILLION YEARS iguana fight, silent Gemora GORILLA footage, SCARLET CLAW church trims, etcetera, etcetera. All the studios seemed to do it at one time or another. I was only half joking above.
Ted Newsom		#459	[-]
Dec 13 11 11:05 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	If (If-if-if-if)... if we take precedent as an indication of possibility, that does dangle the weenie ahead of the sled dogs, just a little. Universal, for instance, got rid of a warehouseful of silent and early sound negs and prints in the 1950s... but kept shots and trims they thought might be useful for some reason: effects shots, establishing shots, stunt scenes, back projection loops, etc. And Fox kept a bunch of excised material from their movies (i.e., the clipped segment of TALES OF MANHATTAN with W.C. Fields, screen tests, etc.) RKO has a tangled history of acquisitions and transfers, and KONG's material may not have even been under RKO's aegis, but rather in Cooper's. Who knows for absolute certain? Chasing Filipino chimeras in the Yukon is probably not 100% useful, but tracking things logically may be. But then, Bart and Jade know this. "Impossible Dream" comes swelling up on the sound track with Richard Kiley's voice, and a first ray of dawn peeks over the roof of some nondescript film vault on Formosa (the street, not the island)...
Tim Smyth		#460	[-]
Dec 18 11 2:45 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	You guys have beat this horse so much, I can't even find any remains. Tim
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Kong's missing Spider scene