Chastity in Adaptations of Comic Strips or Comic Books-no, not a joke, I honestly wondered about the limits of the PG or PG-13 rating in '80s and '90s Horror and Sci-Fi Forum

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Chastity in Adaptations of Comic Strips or Comic Books-no, not a joke, I honestly wondered about the limits of the PG or PG-13 rating

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hermanthegerm		#41	[-]
Apr 9 12 9:50 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	hermanthegerm wrote: Between your backpedaling and you changing directions from one response to the next... Not pissed, just frustrated. "There is a lot of money tied up in this film and people expect to hear a boom when something blows up, so I'll give them a boom." George Lucas as quoted by Harlan Ellison's WATCHING Last Edited By: hermanthegerm Apr 9 12 9:58 PM. Edited 1 times.
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gene phillips		#42	[-]
Apr 10 12 5:44 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	hermanthegerm wrote: Many Weird Tales had nude women in the cover, but they predate the Wertham attacks and the Comic Code (1954). It is actually pretty ridiculous to address the issue of adult subject matter in comics and ignore both of these elements. Comics did not become fully sanitized for children till after then. Asserting that comics where always for children is rather uninformed and misguided. Keep in mind, though, that there existed a sizeable, and perhaps statistically dominant, cross-section of Americans who did believe that comic books, their children's reading matter, should unquestionably be aimed at children. It was for those people that Frederic Wertham had his strongest appeal with the suggestive title of his book, SEDUCTION OF THE INNOCENT. Without that cross-section, no Comics Code comes into existence. NATURALISTIC! UNCANNY! MARVELOUS!
hermanthegerm		#43	[-]
Apr 10 12 6:19 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I do not doubt that at all, but there also is and was a considerable (even if a minority compared to the the other group) adult audience that desired to read adult material in comic (and other) format (see Tijuana Bibles and, later, Underground Comix.) Keep in mind, though, that there existed a sizeable, and perhaps statistically dominant, cross-section of Americans who did believe that comic books, their children's reading matter, should unquestionably be aimed at children. The problem with this is that the only way to achieve this desired result is via censorship of the media. The Supreme Court has already established that this view is unconstitutional (that is if we assume the discussion focuses on the U.S.A. which it seems to be doing.) The adult audience has only grown with time. Many children who grew up reading children's comics are now the adult audience for adult oriented comics. The intended audience for a movie such as Iron Man or Batman includes many of these. Having Tony Stark or Bruce Wayne hang around with starlets of questionable morals or strippers is a concession to them. Kids did not make these movies to be the blockbusters they were. It was adults who did it. Even the ur-comics (Yellow Kid, Happy Hooligan, Katzenjammer Kids) were adult oriented with themes of juvenile delinquency. At that time there were complaints about comics being "a thing of national shame and degradation" (see Ralph Bergengren - 1906,) or, "A Crime Against American Children" (see Ladies Home Journal - January 1909.) Sometime after this period of birthing pains, and only during a brief period during the 1930 was there a heyday for actual children's comics. The kids who read this stuff grew up by the end of the 1930s (see Will Eisner) and made grown up comics themselves (or at least they clearly shifted in tone drawing from the pulp magazines of the time): Immediately in the postwar era, comics where again distinctly adult, with themes of crime, vice, lust and horror. Complaints against comics are not new, and even the early complaints at the birth of the comics were simply carried over from the complaints against the earlier dime novels, precursors of actual comics. Denying that there has been a market for adult comics all along (with mature (or at the very least racy - Paris, alcohol consumption, ballerinas...) themes, sex, violent content or drug use, or simply your generic smut,) or wishing that adult comics should not exist seems pretty silly at this point. "There is a lot of money tied up in this film and people expect to hear a boom when something blows up, so I'll give them a boom." George Lucas as quoted by Harlan Ellison's WATCHING Last Edited By: hermanthegerm Sep 1 12 6:35 PM. Edited 5 times.
Scathach80		#44	[-]
Apr 10 12 6:38 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	hermanthegerm wrote: I do not doubt that at all, but there also is and was a considerable (even if a minority compared to the the other group) adult audience that desired to read adult material in comic (and other) format (see Tijuana Bibles and, later, Underground Comix.) Keep in mind, though, that there existed a sizeable, and perhaps statistically dominant, cross-section of Americans who did believe that comic books, their children's reading matter, should unquestionably be aimed at children. The problem with this is that the only way to achieve this desired result is via censorship of the media. The Supreme Court has already established that this view is unconstitutional (that is if we assume the discussion focuses on the U.S.A. which it seems to be doing.) The adult audience has only grown with time. Many children who grew up reading children's comics are now the adult audience for adult oriented comics. The intended audience for a movie such as Iron Man or Batman includes many of these. Having Tony Stark or Bruce Wayne hang around with starlets of questionable morals or strippers is a concession to them. Kids did not make these movies to be the blockbusters they were. It was adults who did it. Having read the book Overkill: the Rise and Fall of the Thriller, I get a sense that the audience for these films, and their numbers actually comes from repeat teenage and younger, preadolescent audiences. These viewers more often go to see a film in theaters more than once. Mesce notes that thrillers that narrowly attract adults rarely do domestic box office gross of $90 million. Compare the box results of Master and Commander (based on a novel out of a series of novels) to Pirates of the Caribbean (based on a theme park ride-repeat, based on a theme park ride). Also, preadolescents tend to buy the toys, toothbrushes, sneakers, etc. that tie-in with these films.
hermanthegerm		#45	[-]
Apr 10 12 6:41 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Go to Comicon this year. There are some preadolescencents. Most are young adult/adult. That's where the money is. (PS. Neither of those films mentioned are thrillers.) "There is a lot of money tied up in this film and people expect to hear a boom when something blows up, so I'll give them a boom." George Lucas as quoted by Harlan Ellison's WATCHING Last Edited By: hermanthegerm Apr 11 12 1:06 PM. Edited 1 times.
Victor Frankenstein		#46	[-]
Apr 11 12 8:42 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	If I may be so bold, I would project that there is a higher percentage of children (say 12 and under)that play with toys, than there is a percentage of young adults(13+)/adults that consider themselves Comic-Con material. Though, the smaller percentage of adults spend more money on the hobby than the children do... So altogether, I say, I have no idea what I'm talking about.
hermanthegerm		#47	[-]
Apr 11 12 12:46 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Speaking from personal experience, I had to expose my kids to comics before they got into them. It's just not that easy for smaller kids to get a hold of comics anymore: there are no corner stores that sell them anymore. You can get Archie and maybe a Disney magazine (never a Donald Duck comic) at the supermarket, but nothing else, but for more variety you have to go to a comic store (if there is one at your mall,) and then more space is devoted to adult material, than to little kids'. When I go to the comic store I never see little kids. The public library has some comics, including Mexican/Spanish comics in the kids section, but not much variety or quality. I had access to a nice comic/magazine store a block from where I lived, while growing up, not to mention the innumerable news stands (with plenty of comics and kids publications along with the adult comics (lots of them) , fotonovelas, sleazy tabloids and other publications,) every half-block or so. I don't know where you guys think little kids are buying and reading comics, but I don't see it. However, at this point we are changing directions and apparently discussing toys and other merchandising, not comics/movies any longer. Also, we seem to be mixing different time eras, are we discussing the past or the present? Pushing aside any confusion from the two initial pages of this thread, I was focusing the response from the point where it seemed that we agreed we were going to discuss children's comics (or what passed for them) as they made the transition to more adult oriented theatrical entertainment. If you guys are changing the subject once more, please let me know. "There is a lot of money tied up in this film and people expect to hear a boom when something blows up, so I'll give them a boom." George Lucas as quoted by Harlan Ellison's WATCHING Last Edited By: hermanthegerm Apr 13 12 1:28 PM. Edited 2 times.
Scathach80		#48	[-]
Apr 11 12 6:48 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Godziwolf wrote: Scathach80 wrote: Another matter that the MPAA has made peace with involves having protagonists who have pre-marital sex in a PG or PG-13 film. So, I started to think of adaptations where the protagonist has pre-marital sex. Curiously, the above mentioned films all received PG or PG-13 ratings. Startlingly, many of the R-rated films have not even implied that the hero had sex. I may have it wrong, but near as I can tell: John Constantine did not have sex with anyone in his film-we usually do not think of John Constantine as a paragon of abstinence Judge Dredd remained celibate in his film Blade remained celibate in his film series (unless something happened in the third Blade film I do not know about) Watchmen has sex all over it, as well as full-frontal mutant nudity. Hancock implies it. Superman Returns (The kid is Supe's, and he's not married...) My Super Ex-Girlfriend Scott Pilgrim vs. The World As I noted, I cannot include pastiches, otherwise someone might bring up Padme and Annakin Skywalker (who derive from Flash Gordon). I may return to Mr. German's points later.
Godziwolf		#49	[-]
Apr 12 12 8:56 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	hermanthegerm wrote: The intended audience for a movie such as Iron Man or Batman includes many of these. Having Tony Stark or Bruce Wayne hang around with starlets of questionable morals or strippers is a concession to them. Kids did not make these movies to be the blockbusters they were. It was adults who did it. The target audience of much of the recent Marvel output isn't me -- it's my dad. Not many youth-targeted movies feature a 47 year-old main character. Even his secretary is played by a 40 year-old.
hermanthegerm		#50	[-]
Apr 12 12 9:18 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I agree, but I think that the age of the actors may only be a light point. How old were George Reeves or Johnny Weissmuller at their oldest? Yet their work was obviously Family entertainment (not Kid entertainment,) something that I would not think of arguing for Iron Man or Batman's latest, current, theatrical incarnation. The Batman TV show attracted LOTS of aged actors (from a generation or two before) as villains because that was the audience for the TV show. Mom and Pop and Grandma and Granpa were watching the show. You think a little kid cared who Vincent Price, Otto Preminger, Ethel Merman or Victor Buono were? TV Batman, again, was Family entertainment, not little Kid entertainment. Here I am making the distinction of Family vs Kid, which are, to me, two clearly different things, but which seem to be confused in this thread ("Made by kids and for kids.") "There is a lot of money tied up in this film and people expect to hear a boom when something blows up, so I'll give them a boom." George Lucas as quoted by Harlan Ellison's WATCHING Last Edited By: hermanthegerm Apr 13 12 1:25 PM. Edited 2 times.
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Godziwolf		#51	[-]
Apr 13 12 10:22 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Scathach80 wrote: As I noted, I cannot include pastiches, otherwise someone might bring up Padme and Annakin Skywalker (who derive from Flash Gordon). I may return to Mr. German's points later. Please define for us where the goal posts are presently located. All comic book heroes are arguably a pastiche of either Batman or Superman. In the context of the PG + PG-13 era (post-Jaws), for adaptations of comic books, we have two instances: Batman has sex with Vicki Vale (1989), and Superman has a child out of wedlock in Superman Returns. In neither instance does the movie explicitly film penetration, be it anal, oral, or vaginal. Which is a tautology, as it could not then gather a PG or PG-13 rating. In the R-rated adaptation of Watchmen, there is full-frontal male nudity, sex between two unmarried characters, and the discussed and acknowledged rape of one character by another. You'll probably dismiss Watchmen and Iron Man as being some form of pastiche.
Rider		#52	[-]
Apr 13 12 12:46 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Godziwolf wrote: Scathach80 wrote: As I noted, I cannot include pastiches, otherwise someone might bring up Padme and Annakin Skywalker (who derive from Flash Gordon). I may return to Mr. German's points later. Batman has sex with Vicki Vale (1989), and Superman has a child out of wedlock in Superman Returns. In neither instance does the movie explicitly film penetration, be it anal, oral, or vaginal. Which is a tautology, as it could not then gather a PG or PG-13 rating. Huh? Dude you are really going off the rails here. Why are we suddenly discussing filming penetration?
Victor Frankenstein		#53	[-]
Apr 13 12 12:54 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Rider wrote: Why are we suddenly discussing filming penetration? tooeasythatswhatshesaidtooeasy
hermanthegerm		#54	[-]
Apr 13 12 1:53 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Rider wrote: Godziwolf wrote: Scathach80 wrote: As I noted, I cannot include pastiches, otherwise someone might bring up Padme and Annakin Skywalker (who derive from Flash Gordon). I may return to Mr. German's points later. Batman has sex with Vicki Vale (1989), and Superman has a child out of wedlock in Superman Returns. In neither instance does the movie explicitly film penetration, be it anal, oral, or vaginal. Which is a tautology, as it could not then gather a PG or PG-13 rating. Huh? Dude you are really going off the rails here. Why are we suddenly discussing filming penetration? Agreed, the focus is on the idea of chastity, i.e. 'moral purity or (the Christian) no sex outside of marriage.' No graphic sex is necessary to indicate that someone who is sometimes seen a example should or should not remain chaste. Thus both movie Batman and Superman can easily be said to be poor moral examples for the young. This would have nothing to do with PG/PG-13 rating being designated, as the idea that they are not chaste could be tastefully presented and the movies could remain G (I'm sure we can bring up lots of examples of G rated movies where a character behaves immorally, on or offscreen.) If I used the Christian idea of chastity and used the criteria presented, then no children should be exposed to the stories contained in the Bible, as there are plenty of immoral characters and activities going on there! As long as the movie is deemed unsuitable for children, based on whatever subjective criteria the board uses, it should then be assigned at least a PG. The board is only asking that parents do their job. The problem I see in this is that I, as a parent, would not expect my kids to use one-dimensional fictional superheroes as moral guides or examples. I'd rather use a well rounded character, fictional or not, who, even if he/she fails, ultimately sees the light and takes the correct road, superhero or not. Batman by his very vigilante philosophy is very iffy, right off the bat. Superman is an non-human alien and it would be impossible for him to share our human morality. ...And there is nothing groundbreaking about this idea, as, for example ERB's Tarzan, as an outsider, never shares the moral values of those who come to his jungle, whatever their culture or country of origin may be. A moral Superman should have his own moral code, then live by it. Now, I agree that neither Batman, nor Superman ever acknowledge that their behavior is immoral, irresponsible or even, possibly, dangerous, nor do they mend their ways or redeem their acts. Superman's reputation in particular suffers the most, as he, cowardly, erases Lois Lane's memory of being seduced by him and then becomes an absentee father: A pretty sad example for any person, or even for America's representative superhero. But frankly I do not care one bit about what the rating board has to say about it, or even if the films are rated or not. I judged the time when my kids could be exposed to the ideas/examples presented in these movies, and screened the movies for them then. Thus the whole point of the discussion of the limits of the ratings is silly to me. Not that there are not possible worthwhile ideas to be discussed, which is why I've spent time here. "There is a lot of money tied up in this film and people expect to hear a boom when something blows up, so I'll give them a boom." George Lucas as quoted by Harlan Ellison's WATCHING Last Edited By: hermanthegerm Apr 14 12 9:39 AM. Edited 6 times.
Victor Frankenstein		#55	[-]
Apr 13 12 2:11 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	HERMAN! How many times can you edit your posts?! LOL I keep thinking there are new posts here(due to the 'new post icon'), and then I just keep seeing the same posts...trying to fine-read what has changed.
Scathach80		#56	[-]
Apr 13 12 10:26 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Godziwolf wrote: Scathach80 wrote: As I noted, I cannot include pastiches, otherwise someone might bring up Padme and Annakin Skywalker (who derive from Flash Gordon). Please define for us where the goal posts are presently located. ......................... A property which did not start in comic books or comic strips I do not count. So Star Wars, a pastiche of Flash Gordon which started as a film (although the novelization of course came out a bit earlier than the film or comic book adaptation) I wanted to exclude, as I would pastiches with no antecedent comic book or strip such as Return of Captain Invincible or Robocop.
cosmicjim		#57	[-]
Apr 14 12 6:18 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	the excessive number of pg-13 "horror" films in recent years seems a dire trend. when i was a kid, many horror films were r rated, i couldn't see then then, but an 'r' for horror tends to suggest that content may not be lightweight.
Scathach80		#58	[-]
Apr 14 12 6:47 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	hermanthegerm wrote: Go to Comicon this year. There are some preadolescencents. Most are young adult/adult. That's where the money is. (PS. Neither of those films mentioned are thrillers.) Mesce gave that as an example in his book.
Gojira		#59	[-]
Apr 14 12 7:15 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	cosmicjim wrote: the excessive number of pg-13 "horror" films in recent years seems a dire trend. when i was a kid, many horror films were r rated, i couldn't see then then, but an 'r' for horror tends to suggest that content may not be lightweight. In the 70s, lots of horrors were PG, even with mild gore and nudity. It's quite weird how the MPAA flip flops!
hermanthegerm		#60	[-]
Apr 14 12 9:34 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Again, no. The raters are parents, not 'experts', and the people who were rating then are not the same people who rate today. It is only natural that the subjective standards of rating films change over time. "There is a lot of money tied up in this film and people expect to hear a boom when something blows up, so I'll give them a boom." George Lucas as quoted by Harlan Ellison's WATCHING
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Chastity in Adaptations of Comic Strips or Comic Books-no, not a joke, I honestly wondered about the limits of the PG or PG-13 rating