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Wich2 wrote:

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Like other folks have said here as well, the problem is that Donner's movie is bipolar.

Tri-polar, actually -- the film was designed to have three distinct beats: Krypton, Smallville and New York, each with their own tone. It wasn't an accident. (But in my opinion, they got lucky with how the "Kansas" stuff looked and felt, and it wound up overshadowing the rest. Serendipity as much as anything else. It could just as easily have gone the other way).

Okay, guys keep tripping over the Darth reference that my friend used back in '77. Fine. But my main point is bigger than that

I brought him back up because he's a Great Villain (or used to be, anyway), the first really serious Fantasy Villain and a trend setting ground breaker. As has been mentioned, prior to that there was, what, Batman's Rogues Gallery and Doc Savage's "Captain Seas" (and that thumb sucking midget in a bassinet, whatever his name was).

Hal, sure the villains are broad in West's BATMAN - but is that really the gold standard for other projects that you want to look to?

Not the gold standard, not by a long shot. Simply par for the course at that point in time. As much as SUPERMAN pushed the envelope for Silver Screen Superheroes, even the great Richard Donner wasn't capable of thinking that far outside the box.

I don't think anybody but us Monster Kids were ready to see a totally serious Superhero movie at that point in time, just like nobody was ready for a big budget B-movie serial either, 'cuz there'd never been one. Who knew that STAR WARS would be such a game changer? I think it was just bad timing for Supes that STAR WARS made it out of the gate first.

As I touched on before, let's use a more fitting standard to measure by: the best of the modern Marvel films. If IRON MAN, SPIDER-MAN, or THOR had the straight strengths they had, yet cut to camp villainy like this one, who you folks defend the choice? (Heck, even the cheap TV Marvels of the same era as SUPERMAN THE MOVIE - HULK, CAPTAIN AMERICA, SPIDERMAN - didn't do go down that silly road!)

I'm not going to judge the film by today's standards. But your point about the TV Marvels is a good one. I wonder if everyone at the time didn't have cold feet about SUPERMAN looking like a cheap TV movie, and just decided to take the "safe" way out? There were certainly enough "cooks" watching the broth back then -- DC, Salkinds, Donner. I remember being astonished at the time that the darn thing got made at all, much less that it turned out halfway decent.

Times they do change.

Wich2 wrote:

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the Witch (Hamilton) in WIZARD OF OZ

Y'know, I did think about her as a good fantasy villain -- for about two seconds, until I remembered that she was just Almira Gulch in Dorothy's fugue state. (Spoiler) -- it was all a dream.

Those other guys you mentioned are all great fantasy villains for sure, Craig. Heck, you can even throw in The Phantom of the Opera and the Universal Monsters too. But until they oppose some Superheroes, I wouldn't consider them as great Super Villains. That's why I think your Darth Vader example fits so much better. He's The Lightning with a super powered adversary. And a super powered budget.

Robert Troch wrote:

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Wich2 wrote:

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Sir Hal, if Luke and his Force is a Superhero, so is the Thief of Bagdad and his Magic!

                I have to agree.

               Robert T.

Ditto for me -- that's a good one! Conrad Veidt made an outstanding Super Villain. Sinister, heartless, powerful.

And he sounded just like the Red Skull.

Wich2 wrote:

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Like other folks have said here as well, the problem is that Donner's movie is bipolar. Hal, sure the villains are broad in West's BATMAN - but is that really the gold standard for other projects that you want to look to? The heroes were broad there too (yes?), so the piece existed in its own consistent universe.

Y'know, thinking about your comments, Craig, it occurs to me that maybe Hackman's Luthor wasn't really derived so much from BATMAN as he was from another influence happening at the time. Someone who's smart, wealthy, craves power, makes wisecracks and has obsessive personal quirks. And, quite literally, he IS the gold standard.

He's Goldfinger.