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Wich2		#281	[-]
May 3 12 12:42 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	>I've gotta agree with Ted's thinking. 2 reels - whether edited or not - is a LOT of footage to shoot for a mere test.< With respect, two raw reels - designed to show sets, props, actors, makeup, photography styles - is not an excessive amount at all.
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Saturday8pm		#282	[-]
May 3 12 12:47 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Granted, Whale was not a professional sketch artist ... "Lord I love Spring! The birds, the fair weather, the new flowers. It doesn't get any better than this. HOLY CRAP! what's THAT?!?"
Ted Newsom		#283	[-]
May 3 12 1:01 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	The Pierce/Lugosi theory makes sense to me, Gotham. As for the proverbial "Whale skeeches"-- what are we talking about? Has someone been hoarding something? The only things I know of are the sketches on the previous page(s) of other characters, both of which have shortened sleeves and pants and tilt a bit forward. That does seem to be an influence, but in costume rather than make-up.
The Batman of Gotham		#284	[-]
May 3 12 1:13 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	TomWeaver999 wrote: Soooooo many monstuh fans (touting themselves as "experts") were around back in the 1960s and 1970s when Hollywood was still home to scores of moviemakers who could have answered all these questions ... and they did practically zero. "First Fandom" = First Pfffffffffffffft. I wouldn't trade one Mank or Rhodes or Skal (or ANYbody) for the whole sorry lot of 'em. Yeah, Pffffffffffft. What about the Whale sketches? The Monster's makeup design was once assumed to be wholly the creation of Jack Pierce, but in more recent times Whale's contribution has been recognized. That Whale's sketches of the creature's design jibes comfortably with the finished product can't be denied. The robotic appearance featuring grafted-on metallic highlights suggests a melding of science and nature. - GJS
The Batman of Gotham		#285	[-]
May 3 12 1:43 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	What about the Whale sketches? Hey, someone was going to do it. - GJS : ^ )
Bobtheman		#286	[-]
May 3 12 4:08 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	The Pedagogy of Adaptation by Laurence Row, James Michael Welsh by Scarecrow Press an excerpt Curtis' biography of Whale, James Whale: A New World of Gods and Monsters, includes many insights into the cultural context of Whale's film: The look of the monster ( which is only very briefly described by Shelley) came partially from sketches made by James Whale. These sketches were based specifically on Boris Karloff's head shape. Whale told the New York Times that "Karloff's face has always fascinated me, and I made drawings of his head, added sharp, bony ridges, where I imagined the skull might have been joined." I remind all that Whale came on board after the Lugosi screen test, and now we have have a quote from him to New York Times about his sketches which mention Karloff...... http://www.frankenstein1931.com/cast/cast.html The creation of Karloff's mask, which has become the ultimate image of the Frankenstein Monster, is mainly the work of Universal's makeup artist, Jack Pierce. Whale, who was also an artist, had drawn sketches of Karloff , which were closely followed by Pierce. Sketches provided by other make-up artists depicted the monster as an alien, a wild man, or a robot, but Pierce and Whale wanted him to have " a pitiful humanity."
The Batman of Gotham		#287	[-]
May 3 12 4:22 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I remind all that Whale came on board after the Lugosi screen test, and now we have a quote from him to New York Times about his sketches which mention Karloff...... And I remind all that talk is cheap. - GJS
HalLane		#288	[-]
May 3 12 4:53 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Ted Newsom wrote: The idea that Florey shot enough test material for two edited reels is so-o-o-o unlikely. Looking at the script here, I count 23 pages, comprising about 70 'shots', I guess you'd call them. Would that add up to 20 minutes of film? A Three Stooges short is two reels long-- that's an eternity. Only if it's a Besser.
Saturday8pm		#289	[-]
May 3 12 4:59 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Lugosi never looked better! ((( Edited 'cuz the previous post was a Fail ))) "Lord I love Spring! The birds, the fair weather, the new flowers. It doesn't get any better than this. HOLY CRAP! what's THAT?!?" Last Edited By: Saturday8pm May 4 12 10:06 AM. Edited 1 times.
Wich2		#290	[-]
May 3 12 9:11 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	>which is only very briefly described by Shelley< You know, that old saw is really a canard. Victor's hideous progeny gets as much visual description as most characters in classic literature, and more thany many: "About eight feet in height ... limbs were in proportion ... yellow skin scarcely covered the work of muscles and arteries beneath ... colour and apparent texture like that of a mummy ... hair was of a lustrous black, and flowing ... teeth of a pearly whiteness ... watery eyes, that seemed almost of the same colour as the dun white sockets in which they were set ... shrivelled complexion and straight black lips ..."
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Saturday8pm		#291	[-]
May 3 12 9:13 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I still say we revive that thread that called artists here to tackle that form again ... got some good visuals there! "Lord I love Spring! The birds, the fair weather, the new flowers. It doesn't get any better than this. HOLY CRAP! what's THAT?!?"
Ted Newsom		#292	[-]
May 3 12 10:16 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Bobtheman wrote: The Pedagogy of Adaptation by Laurence Row, James Michael Welsh by Scarecrow Press an excerpt Curtis' biography of Whale, James Whale: A New World of Gods and Monsters, includes many insights into the cultural context of Whale's film: The look of the monster ( which is only very briefly described by Shelley) came partially from sketches made by James Whale. These sketches were based specifically on Boris Karloff's head shape. Whale told the New York Times that "Karloff's face has always fascinated me, and I made drawings of his head, added sharp, bony ridges, where I imagined the skull might have been joined." I remind all that Whale came on board after the Lugosi screen test, and now we have have a quote from him to New York Times about his sketches which mention Karloff...... http://www.frankenstein1931.com/cast/cast.html The creation of Karloff's mask, which has become the ultimate image of the Frankenstein Monster, is mainly the work of Universal's makeup artist, Jack Pierce. Whale, who was also an artist, had drawn sketches of Karloff , which were closely followed by Pierce. Sketches provided by other make-up artists depicted the monster as an alien, a wild man, or a robot, but Pierce and Whale wanted him to have " a pitiful humanity." We can use this to wrap fish. The assorted sketches had nothing at all to do with Whale, Pierce, Karloff or Universal. It's a half-dozen disparate images from assorted pulp magazines put together by some fan sci-fi magazine at the time, suggestions from readers on what they think Frankenstein should lok like. The sketches were all illustrations of other pulp stories, which is why they all portrayed different characters, with completely different artist styles. If that's the level of research of the article, I'd use it to line the bird cage. Next thing you know, they'll claim Karloff doesn't have hairy arms. I'd guess the Whale quote about sketching Karloff may well be accurate and genuine, but we've yet to see any example of it. Last Edited By: Ted Newsom May 3 12 10:51 PM. Edited 1 times.
Cartoon		#293	[-]
May 4 12 5:00 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	About the length of the test reel, once and for all (I wish)… We know Florey made the test reel in 3 days. First day, June 15, was spent dressing up and lighting a repurposed Dracula set. Perhaps actors were rehearsed. Shooting took place over the next 2 days, June 16 and 17. In a letter written years later, Florey stated that he had shot “approximately two and a half reels (1000 feet, or about 300 meters per magazine) of test footage with Bela Lugosi”. One reel, or 1000 feet, is about 11 minutes. Two and a half reels means roughly 25 minutes. That’s RAW footage. Florey was famous for a couple of experimental shorts he had made with next to no resources. When he was first announced as director for FRANKENSTEIN, newspapers played up that he had made a movie “for less than $100”. Florey could work cheap and fast, with eye-popping results. Cameraman Paul Ivano remembered the test fondly, using words like “artistic”, “nightmarish” and “Surrealistic”. Perhaps Florey plotted every move, rehearsed his actors and tried to shoot every scene in one take, but there must have been flubs, the occasional retake, maybe something tried out a couple of different ways. He may have tried to edit “in camera”, but still, scenes had to be trimmed or tightened here and there. Florey was adept at editing, his shorts are crammed with quick cuts and it’s likely — make that inevitable — that he pulled every trick he knew. The creation scene used flashing lights, bubbling retorts, wide-angle lenses, weird angles, which means setting up and shooting lab footage that will necessarily be boiled down to short clips. Say Florey saved as much as 50% of what he shot — still a remarkable haul, by any standard, for 2 days on the set — that’ll give you, roughly speaking, a 12 minute film. Florey says he shot two and a half reels, I’ll take his word for it, he was there. But that’s raw footage. The final edited test as shown a week later would have been much shorter. http://frankensteinia.blogspot.com http://frankensteinforever.tumblr.com/ http://monstercrazy.tumblr.com/
Wich2		#294	[-]
May 4 12 9:02 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	And there it is.
Saturday8pm		#295	[-]
May 4 12 10:07 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	It won't turn up, but it would make a great blooper reel in the DVD Extras. Kinda LoL-inducing. "Lord I love Spring! The birds, the fair weather, the new flowers. It doesn't get any better than this. HOLY CRAP! what's THAT?!?"
Ted Newsom		#296	[-]
May 4 12 11:45 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	We're in the realm of hypothesis and guesswork. Florey's montage background and ability to make-do is a given. We know little about the content of the "test" except that it was the Monster waking up-- either when it's first alive, or the later scene where it's simply laying on the table comatose and rises to kill Waldman. No one so far has discovered any particulars, like used Strickfadden machines, lightning bolts, bubbling flagons, etc. Nor did anyone directly involved explicitly said it was the creation scene, or anything more than a test of whether or not Lugosi looked spooky in the make-up as envisioned at that point. Florey (et al) did not represent it as a series of shots designed to show off special electrical gadgets, medical props, sets, or anything else. Make-up test with Lugosi. The presence of Van Sloan acting in the test indicates (to me, anyway), that either he was subbing for a Frankenstein actor and playing the mad doctor role himself (which he never said, and since that would be a rather extraordinary bit of information, I think we can discount this as a theory)... or... playing the character he eventually played in the Whale film, who putters around, doesn't realize the Monster is waking up, then gets himself strangled. That sequence would be a lot more reasonable to shoot on an improvised set than a full-blown creation scene. What little information we seem to have about Lugosi in the test seems to jibe with this latter theory: that he didn't do much... opened his eyes, etc. That Monster/Waldman sequence as Whale shot it runs perhaps a minute. That seems to me a lot more reasonable length for a make-up test than 11 minutes, or (depending on which source you care to believe), a fully-edited 22 minutes. That's nearly a third of a damned movie. Last Edited By: Ted Newsom May 4 12 11:56 AM. Edited 1 times.
Wich2		#297	[-]
May 4 12 1:25 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Just to be clear: I'm making no surmises as to the length of the "finished" presentation reel - but I have no problem believing that (approx.) two reels was shot. They had a big set, makeup artist, camera & light crew, several actors; I think the idea that it went a little beyond a few shots of The Monster, but fell far short of a coherent, finalized sequence, makes sense. Last Edited By: Wich2 May 4 12 1:34 PM. Edited 1 times.
Saturday8pm		#298	[-]
May 4 12 2:01 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Seems reasonable to expect they let the camera roll awhile and then edited out any elements that would cause issues with any of the brass - let's face it, artisans look at these things differently than the bean counters. After all, witness all the crap Coppola went through with the first "Godfather" ... all kinds of sniping from executives that he wasn't doing this and that, and he was pegged to be fired ... all he showed them were the results of the first week of shooting, and what a week it was: the shooting by Michael of Sgt McCluskey and Sollozzo at Louie's ... after all the subterfuge and BS on the set, Coppola delivered a film early AND under budget ... sometimes the brass dunno what it's talkin' 'bout. But in THiS case, I'm willing to make an exception. DESPiTE our pal Bela. "Lord I love Spring! The birds, the fair weather, the new flowers. It doesn't get any better than this. HOLY CRAP! what's THAT?!?"
Bobtheman		#299	[-]
May 4 12 4:10 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Post 292 Ted Newsom "We can use this to wrap fish. The assorted sketches had nothing at all to do with Whale, Pierce, Karloff or Universal" Ted, can you comment on post 278 of this thread, Tom Weaver and the Brunas Brothers book and the information it contains.. I've copied and pasted it here.... Universal Horrors: The Universal Classic Films, 1931-1946 by Tom Weaver., Mchael Brunas, John Brunas .... excerpts.... Florey's test reel of Frankenstein , virtually his audition for the studio brass who were still unsure of the director as well as the subject matter , remains one of the most sought-after of all of Hollywood's lost treasures, Photographed by Paul Ivano on the Dracula castle set, the footage ( which lasted only twenty minutes, after editing) starred Bela Lugosi in Jack Pierce's early makeup design for the Monster. The Monster's makeup design was once assumed to be wholly the creation of Jack Pierce, but in more recent times Whale's contribution has been recognized. That Whale's sketches of the creature's design jibes comfortably with the finished product can't be denied. The robotic appearance featring grafted-on metallic highlights suggests a melding if science and nature. Pierce's execution is no less impressive, artistically rendered on Karloff's facial canvas to create a truly organic effect. Pierce took credit for the Monster's square-shaped skull which supposedly came to the make-up man while he was watching a surgical operation on a man's head. The abnormal shape of how the top of the head would like removed, with more gray matter piled in and a and a new cranimun supplied to accomodate the oversized brain. An artificial skull was fitted over Karloff's head and his face was covered with a thick layer of gray-green greasepaint. Artifical viens were actualy sripped of cotton soaked in collodion and the actor's hands were meticuously made up. Working from James Whales's sketches, Pierce labored slowly and meticuously; even the slighest bit of makeup caused unbearable pain when caught in the actor's eyes. information from another book , crediting Whale for his work with Pierce along with other on line sources... http://classic-horror.com/reviews/frankenstein_1931 The monster's design ( courtesy of Pierce and Whale) is absolutely top notch , not to mention legendary. Pierce studied up to create the design , including criminology, surgery, anatomy, burial customs ( both ancient and modern) , and electrodynamics. Whake appreciated what Karloff brought physically, to the part. He wrote " Karloff's face fascinated me. I made drawings of the head. added sharp bony ridges, where I imagined the skull might have joined." The makeup, which has since become the basis for nearly every Frankesntein monster to come , was eventually copyrighted by Universal. ( Source of previous paragraph : "Horror Movies" by Alan Frank Octopus Press 1974.) http://www.eeriedigest.com/wordpress/2011/05/boris-karloff-and-vincent-price-by-eddie-butler/ Whale studied the actor and made drawings of his skull adding edges where the make-up would be attached. he had found his Monster and the rest is history ,,,,, http://www.cinemaqueer.com/review%20pages/ofgaysghouls.html According to Gods and Monsters, it was Whale who first sketched the creature's look, creating such an effective icon , that even today it is universally recognized as Frankenstein's Monster. http://www.totalfilm.com/reviews/dvd/the-frankenstein-collection Karloff's lumbering , pathetic Monster , brilliantly created from Whale's sketches by make-up maestro Jack Pierce.
HalLane		#300	[-]
May 4 12 4:30 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Ted Newsom wrote: We know little about the content of the "test" except that it was the Monster waking up-- either when it's first alive, or the later scene where it's simply laying on the table comatose and rises to kill Waldman. No one so far has discovered any particulars..... Ted, I'm looking at the 23 page script reprinted in APPENDIX A of the first volume of Phil Riley's Universal Filmscripts Series (yeah, I know -- but hold on). It's captioned "a rare look at the shooting script for the lost Lugosi test footage, conceived and filmed by Robert Florey". It's annotated with notes initialed R.F. and stamped ROBERT FLOREY on several of the pages (just in case someone might think it's a "different" R.F.), it's signed to "my friend Phil Riley" by Florey on 11-30-73 with an arrow drawn to his name heading the script, it's signed by Paul Ivano and dated 1975, with the inscription << I shot the first tests of "FRANKENSTEIN" with Robert Florey with Lugosi"<< (sic), and it starts with scene D-27, a dissolve to the laboratory (omitting scene D-26 with VICTOR and WALDMAN, to notes saying "O.K. FOR TEST?" and "Test with Bela Lugosi from here R.F." and the Florey stamp). It then goes on to encompass quite a lot of stuff with Victor and Waldman, with a note in scene D-39 after Frankenstein says "I shall give it life! I created it!", specifying: "LIGHTNING EFFECT -SOUND- (TERRIFIC CRASH OF THUNDER, AS STORM BREAKS OVERHEAD IN FULL FURY) caps R.F.". Then there's more stuff; Fritz is in there too. It finally ends with scene D-94, after several shots of the dead hand moving for the first time, and Henry's line " In the name of God! Now I know how it feels to be God". FADE OUT. Btw, the Lugosi close-up comes about halfway through, while Waldman is examining the "chalkily white and expressionless" corpse ("It is like the death-mask of-a monster-").
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