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Jan 23 08 11:48 PM
Jan 24 08 3:43 AM
Let's not forget, when mentioning Marvel's inkers, the multiple Shazam! award winning Dan Adkins. Barry Smith's best work on Conan was inked by Adkins. And the team of John and Marie Severin. Great stuff! And, didn't Bill Everett actually pencil some Sub-Mariner issues in the 1960's?
Really surprised at the Count's dislike of Infantino and Kubert who were not just artists but artists' artists. Count, when were you first exposed to these guys? During their hey day in the early 60's or later?
I agree, by the way, that Infantino's art declined after the 60's (and rapidly), but back in his Flash/Adam Strange days, he was the one to beat.
I did want to say that I think our appreciation of certain artists, comic books, etc. is relative, based on our age when we first beheld them. The greatest comic book artist in the world could come along right NOW and I could acknowlege his greatness but ya know what? I still get a bigger thrill from Dick Sprang's WORLDS FINEST issue where Superman and Batman meet the Crimson Avenger. Because that's when I was a kid.
Jan 24 08 11:49 AM
Jan 24 08 12:37 PM
"I love DC Comics. It's just that Marvel generally blows them away when it comes to writers, inkers, pencillers, and even characters."
Jan 24 08 1:19 PM
Jan 24 08 7:14 PM
Again, this was many years after I'd suffered through years of Bob Brown's chicken-scratch art on Avengers, and then tons of Don Heck reprints.
Burnley/Shwartz...who even remembers them? Old Golden Age artists, with GA styles.
Jan 24 08 7:44 PM
haven't seen a great deal of his work, but enough to realise Jack Burnley was a major talent.
Jan 24 08 8:04 PM
Jan 25 08 2:04 AM
That's an awfully definitive statement, for such a long-lived & varied medium. For one thing, if we go by the old Civil War general's advice, "get there the fustest, with the mostest," we have to face The Man of Steel and the Darknight Detective.
Have you read much Golden Age stuff? To a large degree, excepting mainly Simon & Kirby, Marvel's looks terrible, and is near unreadable, script-wise.
In the Silver Age, yes; to a large degree, DC had gotten fat & complacent, & Marvel - largely, Lee & Kirby & Ditko - ran rings around them, & reinvigorated the medium.
But when the Second Wave - former fans like Denny O' Neill & Wrightson - came in, the other team again took the lead. The best of the Bronze Age, which pretty much created the more adult comics most of us love best, came from DC: the "back to basics" Batman; GL/GA; Swamp Thing; Maggin's reinvigorated Supes; The Shadow; Tarzan; Kirby's stuff there (much better than his "return to Marvel" material); etc.
Nowdays, to me at least, both (former) Majors mainly stumble around; one or the other occasionally hits the ball...
PLATINUM AGE (1897-1932) - This was really pre-comic book stuff. Lots of reprints of comic strips with cardboard covers, promotional give-aways and one shots in all sorts of odd shapes and sizes. I love this age, although collecting it is out of the question simply because of price, scarcity, and costs to maintain. This is as vintage as it gets! PRE-GOLDEN AGE (1933-May, 1938) - Here we get into the idea of sequential comics. This is where the modern comic format starts, with Funnies On Parade and stuff like that. These are mostly copied comic strips from newspapers bundled together. I'm not too excited about it outside of its historical value. Some of the Disney stuff is good. GOLDEN AGE (June, 1938-1945) - I never cared for the Golden Age. The stories sucked, the art sucked...it's just because Superman hit it big and ushered in the age of superhero comics that this age means anything. Sure, we got some cool characters. But the stories are hideous, as is the art. ATOM AGE (1946 - 1956) - I really never understood this classification. Ok, so atom bomb covers were popular. Big deal. I don't think it deserves its own age. It's still mostly Golden Age junk to me. If anything, the age should be the EC AGE, since EC Comics had such a huge effect on the industy during that time and beyond. SILVER AGE (Sept, 1956 - 1969) - Here's where it gets good. Stories and art take a quantum leap up from the Golden Age. Marvel creates the ultimate comic book company of all time. It only gets better as the age goes on. My second favorite age after the Bronze Age. BRONZE AGE (1970 - 1979) - Shame on all those fools who do not recognize a Bronze Age! The 70's was as unique a time in comic history as any other, and more happened in the Bronze Age than in any other. While it can be argued that there was in some cases higher quality on some titles in the Silver Age, I still enjoyed more of the Bronze Age. RUST AGE (1980 - 1983) - Here is where it all started to fall apart. As the 80's came in, one by one the great runs ended. There were still some great comics out there, but many if not most comic titles began to decline significantly in this age. DOOM AGE (1984 - 1985) - With Secret Wars at Marvel and Crisis at DC, both companies went to hell quickly. These years are the turning points for both companies. The company-wide crossover was invented, and the ret-con reached epic proportions. Comics went to hell in this short period. Almost nothing worth reading was left by 1985. The industry was doomed by these two short years. LAST GASP AGE (1986 - 1989) - During this time, a very few comics gave a last gasp and signaled the death knell of comics forever. Scout by Eclipse (which technically started in Dec. of '85) was just about the only thing worth reading in this era, and Simonson's run on Thor. GIMMICK AGE - (1990 - 1999) - a total waste of paper, absolutely nothing good came out of the 90's. Majorly freaking stupid ret-cons were tried, characters were forever damaged with idiotic changes, and gimmicks like company-wide super-crossovers, foil covers, reboots, #0 issues, #1/2 issues and #1,000,000 idiocy polluted the stands. No wonder the industry fell. It should never have tried to get up. SHIT AGE (2000 - present) - The age of stupid ideas, near-monthly crappy ret-cons, $#!+ poor art, minimal story per issue due to hack artists doing 3 panel and full panel pages, hyper-realism and excessive sex turn comics into utter $#!+. I'd use them only for toilet paper, if extremely overpriced toilet paper. That's my take on the comic book industry between 1897 and 2008.
Jan 25 08 2:22 AM
This is a highly subjective comment--but, jeepers, DC Comics just always seemed to be more fun. I'm talking Silver-Bronze. Marvel Comics always seemed a little--pompous. But I loved them both.
Jan 25 08 1:22 PM
Jan 25 08 5:02 PM
Early Bob Kane and Joe Shuster are things of beauty!
In comparison, the Avengers had their great run that lasted from '76 to '80, with mainly Perez and Byrne art, both at their peaks,
Jan 25 08 7:08 PM
GIMMICK AGE - (1990 - 1999) - a total waste of paper, absolutely nothing good came out of the 90's. Majorly freaking stupid ret-cons were tried, characters were forever damaged with idiotic changes, and gimmicks like company-wide super-crossovers, foil covers, reboots, #0 issues, #1/2 issues and #1,000,000 idiocy polluted the stands. No wonder the industry fell. It should never have tried to get up.
Jan 25 08 7:52 PM
Jan 25 08 8:06 PM
captainmarvel1957 wrote: My question is, what change do you think has been the most damaging to a character? Feel free to be brutal in your assessment.
Jan 25 08 9:45 PM
Boy, Count, you are so right about the current Poop age. I was looking over some current comics at Borders last night, and they were all hideous,HIDEOUS I tell you!
Much as I liked Perez' work on Avengers at the time, it seems very crude to me now. I think it shows what a lot of drek was around at the time that Perez stood out . His last run on Avengers was breathtaking, he's an artist who has consistently improved over the years and never been content to rest on his laurels.
I would agree with what the Count said with just a handful of exceptions. I thought JIm Lee's X-Men during this period was very good. A couple of the Image titles were pretty good as well.
But my question is, the Count points out that during this period that some characters were forever damaged with idiotic changes. I think a couple of these that stand out in my mind are Barry Allen's Flash running himself into a cinder and Aquaman losing his left hand. Those two changes were like saying that The Flash and Aquaman were disposable characters. Another biggie that comes to mind is when Batman's back was broken. Then along came Kingdom Come and we saw that the back injury had lifelong effects on Batman. Nonsense.
My question is, what change do you think has been the most damaging to a character? Feel free to be brutal in your assessment.
Count, you obviously love comical bookies, know your stuff, and state your case well.
Folks running the biz then would have freely admitted they were writing for kids - but so were most of the classic fairy tale,and children's lit, writers for centuries; doesn't automatically make the stuff of no worth. The problem I have with much GA Timely/Marvel, is that it seems written BY kindergarteners, whereas most of National/DC's is at least coherent.
Since that means Segar's POPEYE, Gould's TRACY, Raymond's GORDON & X-9, Foster's TARZAN, Crane's WASH TUBBS & BUZZ SAWYER, etc., I don't see that as a failing?
I can only say that the best of the Siegel/Shuster shop's SUPERMAN; Jack Cole's PLASTIC MAN; Will Eisner's SPIRIT; Reed Crandall's BLACKHAWK; Mac Raboy's CAP. MARVEL JR.; the best of Simon & Kirby's GA work; Carl Barks' DONALD DUCK; the best of Finger & Robinson's BATMAN; much of the EC shop's work, etc., needs no apology that I can see?
To dismiss it all out of hand comes close to being analgaous to the thread elsewhere calling Silent Film "not Real Movies." And worst of all, closes off some dang satisfying reading!
Frank Miller's Dark Knight. Suddenly every writer after that "template" steered Batman slowly but surely into a friendless brooding paranoid psychopath.
Jan 26 08 12:13 AM
Jan 26 08 12:28 AM
Jan 26 08 1:58 AM
Jan 26 08 2:44 AM
Wow, do I have to disagree there. POPEYE is "toon style, " yes; the others - especially Raymond's & Foster's work - fits your demands. And takes the prize. Ever see any Sundays?
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