Same with Bruce Lee. I think hes a great and powerful actor, but there are books and articles which practically orgasm over a facial tic, or the way he sits at
a table!
0 Kudo
The Dark Knight
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 killer meteor |
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(07/17/08 5:11 PM) |
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 Mark Redfield |
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(07/17/08 6:49 PM) |
I saw THE DARK KNIGHT last night (Wed the 16th) and have to collect my thoughts, as I saw it after a long, tiring 12 hour day on the set (outdoors in 85-90
degree weather).
But I'll leave you with a few thoughts: the farther we move away from the Burton films, problematic as they are (too many villains, etc), the more I'm inclined to think that Burton (and his writers and designers and actors) got Batman right. Moreso, in hindsight, than anyone else in live-action. The batfilms all battle the same villain, and that is the Warner Bros. brass. ALL of the films are over-stuffed submarines, THE DARK KNIGHT is no exception. I agree with what Nolan has said in interviews, that he couldn't cut the film any tighter and shorten the running time of the final film. He couldn't because they went into production with a script that needed another six months worth of work, at the least. A tighter script would have been able to serve both masters; Nolan and the screenwriters story and themes, and Warner Bros. need for big, loud and flashy set pieces that serve no purpose but for making summer blockbusters big, loud and flashy. A better balance at the scripting stage and a more electrifying film would have emerged. THE DARK KNIGHT is simply gluttonous, if the word can be usesd to describe a film. There is simply too much material. Enough, in fact, for two really brilliant films, with a linking storyline, instead of merely one good film, filled with some dramatically badly handled moments and mis-steps. Maybe I'll wait until after the weekend and give others a chance to see it, and then come back with my thoughts on the rest, like why Nolan and crew can't shoot action scenes correctly (and with excitement); ask "what's up!?" with Bale's choice for his "Batman voice" (if Keaton started the whole thing with a dark whisper, Bale's Batman needs to seriously give up the whiskey and cheap cigars); compare how Bond only needs M and Q and the British taxpayers, but where Batman needs Gordon, Fox and Alfred and hundreds of un-named engineers and scientists paid by Wayne Enterprises; how Batman went from wealthy detective-scientist-athlete to wealthy ninja in two Nolan films; and finally, what went half-wrong with The Joker, but what went 100% right with Harvey "Two-Face" Dent (but even that character arc is too abrupt in a film that is too long). There has been mention made by a few critics regarding THE DARK KNIGHT and DIRTY HARRY. Having seen both in the last week, it's worth dissecting and discussing, I think. All in all, I enjoyed the film, and it's better on many levels than BATMAN BEGINS. But as Batman continues, this episode is just too big for it's own batsuit. |
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Bill Warren |
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(07/17/08 6:56 PM) |
My review of this movie is now available at Audio/Video Revolution.
In the last paragraph of the review, I wrote "Christopher Bale" where I mean "Christopher Nolan." Lord knows I'm sorry. http://www.modernhometheater.com/movies/revs/dark_knight.shtml |
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Mark Redfield |
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(07/17/08 7:16 PM) |
Bill, I liked your review, and my earlier post may sound as if I don't like the film. I do, and find that I agree with several things that you say. I just
can't bring myself to think of Ledger's Joker as definitive (as in final or conclusive), and I have trouble with many of the action scenes,
particularly the smaller hand-to-hand combat scenes.
Although I continue to miss Elfman's theme, I do like the score, and in particular the music cue/sound effect that foreshadows and accompanies/underscores each appearance of The Joker. It's very effective. I've read somewhere that one of the most unsettling and annoying sounds for humans is the buzzing of certain insects. Here it is exploited for full (and good) effect. |
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Chesterbelloc |
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(07/17/08 7:21 PM) |
Excellent review, Bill! I can't wait to see this movie tomorrow.
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Bill Warren |
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(07/17/08 8:43 PM) |
I may be misusing it somewhat, but it seems to me the word "definitive" depends on the circumstances. Jack Nicholson's
performance as The Joker edged toward definitive for a Joker conceived >that< way and moving in >those< surroundings. That Joker wouldn't fit
into Christopher Nolan's conception of Gotham City, and how he has chosen to stylize the look of the film and how its performances fit in. Ledger's
performance is very different, but I think just as valid as Nicholson's. Nicholson has said that one reason he took the role was to see if it was a part
that >could< be overplayed. He said it couldn't be; no matter how far out he went, the Joker was still out there ahead of him. I think that applies
to Ledger as well, which would make it difficult if they want to bring the Joker back in another sequel. I don't think, in a sense, there's room to
maneuver out ahead of the limits of Ledger's performance--partly because it doesn't seem to HAVE limits. Is there A definitive Hamlet, or are there
any number of Hamlets definitive for the particular production of the play?
All this is part of my lifetime of musing on acting in the movies. Mark, I think I've mentioned to you in the past that I'm very curious about acting in films, so much so that I've often toyed with the idea of doing a book on the subject. I talked to Robert Forster about this once, since he's both a very good actor and an acting teacher. I wondered about the whole question of "technique," and what it really means. How could an actor like, say, Spencer Tracy shoot craps in a corner with the grips, then walk in front of the camera to deliver a perfect performance--then go right back to shooting craps? How does that relate to Peter Weller, who susses out a role, decides what music fits the role, then play that music on earphones throughout the shoot, doffing the phones only when he's shooting a scene? How does that relate to other actors who cannot >stand< to have someone on the set, off camera but in their eyelines? How does it relate to those actors who stay in character from beginning to end of the shoot? (David Suchet gets so far into Poirot that he's still talking with a Belgian accent when he goes home in the evening.) How does it relate to what Anthony Hopkins told me was >his< technique--he imagines his mind as the control room of a little spaceship, he gets in, flips this switch, throws that one, and off he goes. (I mentioned that would be very hard to teach in an acting class, and he agreed.) How much of acting is grown-up "let's pretend"? Is there a basic difference? Does it take more intellectualization? Michael Caine said that between takes, Ledger ambled over to him, chatted about this and that, then when "action" was called, turned back into the Joker. How the hell does someone do that? ESPECIALLY in movie acting, which is all bits and pieces, which are rarely in the order they'll appear in the finished film? Is technique like Dumbo's magic feather? Are Spencer Tracy, Peter Weller and Klaus Kinski doing the same thing with the same components of their mind? I was once asked to do a bit for a movie (never released in this country). I did my best, but I came out utterly phony. The big trick in acting for movies (in almost all cases) is to act as though you are saying your lines for the first time, that you are simply coming up with them as you speak--and to do this while sounding like the character you're playing, and not like you're reciting memorized lines. I first really became aware of some of this back in the 1950s when I first saw HATARI!. I'd liked John Wayne sometimes, sometimes not--even in the same film at times. This was largely true of HATARI!; out there chasing rhinos and whatnot Wayne seemed entirely real. Other times, mostly in dialogue scenes, he seemed completely unreal; I imagined I could see him speaking, then waiting for the other person to finish speaking, then deliver his next line. I thought I could actually see him counting the moments until his next line. How do actors do it? How do they seem to actually be listening to what the other in the scene is saying, then to say something that convincingly sounds like a response? Many people think this is very easy--until they try it. (And even then, there is that handful for whom it IS all that easy.) Acting is a wonderful mystery to me, like choreography for movies. How DO they DO it? |
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Mattel Jones |
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(07/17/08 9:39 PM) |
Bill Warren wrote:
A fascinating subject Mr. W., it seems to me that if acting is anything like great dancing (or its design) it takes a lot of practice to perfect no matter how it appears to be done. The styles of acting you mention seem to go back to that favorite chestnut of critics and performers: Method vs Naturalism. There's some interesting quotes on the subject as they relate to John Wayne (since you brought him up) and others in the short article found at the link in the pic below. 
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Don Glut |
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(07/17/08 9:58 PM) |
Odd thing about acting concerning me ...
I never considered myself an actor, never wanted to be an actor and still don't want to be one. In fact, it wouldn't be a lie for me to say that I find acting to be an unpleasant and even boring personal experience. Nonetheless, I recently stumbled into an acting gig (against my own protests) for doing voice-over dubbing of Japanese animae movies into English. It pays reasonably well, so I said I'd try it. To my surprise, I found acting to be easy. So far I've done 6 feature-length movies, playing from 5 to 7 or more very different characters per movie. I don't see the script until I' m in the recording booth reading my lines off a teleprompter ...and have no idea what the plots are until I see the edited movie. It takes me about 20 minutes to do my lines for an entire movie. Really weird, the producer (in Japan) and director (American) keep complimenting on my work. Not believing them, I waited about 5 days before working up my nerve and actually watching one of the films, afraid I'd sound terrible or stupid. By the time I did watch the first one, I'd forgotten which characters I'd played (except for one of the leads). Guess I was okay, but it's too hard for me to judge. I guess I'm one of the only actors who "act" only for the money. I'd really rathed be doing something else. Don |
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Mark Redfield |
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(07/17/08 10:52 PM) |
Bill, as I've said to you before, keep mulling and let that unwritten book on screen acting gnaw at you and then, when you've organized your
investigation, get to it! There is simply not enough intelligent material available for the lay person to understand the mysteries of the art and craft of film
acting. It is incredibly easy to become quickly inarticulate when discussing and "explaining" acting and what it is, especially for actors who
practice it very well. Michael Caine comes immediately to mind. I'm looking forward to having this discussion with you soon in person because I want you to
write that book!
Regarding the two Jokers in the deck (Nicholson's and Ledger's)---when I stepped out of the theater last night after the screening, a friend turned to me and after inquiring if I liked it, stated bluntly that Ledger's Joker was far better than Nicholson's. I took a pull on my cigarette and thought a moment, and asked my friend a question. "But you liked Nicholson in Batman, didn't you?" He said that he did. I went further. I asked him, "If Nicholson did this script (of THE DARK KNIGHT) twenty or twenty-five years ago, how'd you think he'd do?" My firend shot back without too much consideration, "Oh, he'd tear it up! He'd be great!" My friend then understood my point immediately. That it was really useless to compare performances or actors, because the scripts each dictated a very different character and set of circumstances. Two very different Jokers, each used very differently to tell different stories (that interestingly do share certain similar themes). About Heath Ledger (and you touch on it when you recall Michael Caine talking about him working on the set) that has bothered me since his death. When Ledger died, many people who reported on it, pointed to his intensity in playing the role, his total immersion into the role, and that that was somehow directly responsible to his problems of sleeplessness that lead to his accidental overdose. This legend, that the role was so intense that it damaged Ledger, continues in print and on the internet. Caine's comment, how Ledger could "turn it on and off" dispels that bullshit utterly. People who continue to perpetuate this notion about Ledger haven't a clue as to what acting is all about. They confuse psychotic behavior and loss of personality with acting. They want an easy, pat answer for his death. |
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Mark Redfield |
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(07/17/08 11:01 PM) |
Don, I think you've stumbled onto one of the secrets and why your experience wasn't unpleasant for you: you took it easy, didn't take it too
seriously, you were probably relaxed in the recording booth.
And voice acting is a very different animal. I just did half a dozen characters for an English language animated film for an overseas company. You can go to work in your shabbiest jeans, unshaven, and still play princes and monsters and comic sidekicks of all shapes and sizes---just play and have fun! |
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Michael Elliott |
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(07/17/08 11:44 PM) |
1. I'm not a comic book fan.
2. I didn't care for any of the "original" 4 Batman movies. 3. Summer blockbusters turn me off. 4. CGI has ruined and made Hollywood director's lazy. BUT..... I really enjoyed the last Batman movie and I'm actually dying to see this one. As for acting, I think anyone can do it but you just have to know how to get it out of you. We all act in our everyday life but I guess doing it in front of a camera and bringing it out would be the hard thing. |
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HalLane |
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(07/18/08 12:10 AM) |
Don Glut wrote: Here's hoping that "Walter Brennan" is one of the characters. Please do let us know what titles to look for on these flicks. Mark Redfield wrote: Umm, he was working on that Terry Gilliam movie when he died, not BATMAN ..... so it's kind of a spurious connection anyway ....
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Mark Redfield |
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(07/18/08 12:38 AM) |
HalLane wrote: Hal--exactly right. Ledgers work on The Dark Knight was long finished when he passed away. But as recently as last week, David Denby had this
bone-headed thing to say about Ledger's work as the Joker:
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Don Glut |
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(07/18/08 1:28 AM) |
Yes, Walter was one ... a drunk Gabby Hayes another ... also Lon, Jr., Walter Cronkite, George C. Scott, and others. But I did some in my own voice, too. But
this voice-over work really isn't fun for me. It's a job.
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captainmarvel1957 |
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(07/18/08 1:56 AM) |
Nice to see something like that written about Ledger's performance. I have been thinking that there will be a whole bunch of slobbering over his work but that it will all be triggered by his death.That's how Sylvester Stallone lost his Oscar for Rocky to Peter Finch in Network. You can say what you want about Stallone, but his initial Rocky outing was a great all around performance. I feel sorry for any actor that turns in the performance of a lifetime this year---unless, of course, it's Leger that did give the performance of a lifetime. I do believe that on the heels of Brokeback Mountain and the tragedy of his death he will get serious consideration come Oscar time. I'll see this movie in a couple of weeks when the lines die down. The stories about 90% sell outs in some theaters by last Tuesday have made me gunshy about attending opening weekend. I'll see it in a couple of week unless, maybe, The X-Files gets great reviews. |
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captainmarvel1957 |
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(07/18/08 2:02 AM) |
Nice review, Bill! X-Files be damned. It'll be Batman. And, I liked reading in the last paragraph that previous to this you considered Spider-Man 2 one of
the best, if not the best, comic book movies. I've held that opinion of it since it's release. So, we may have the same taste in comic book movies and
if you liked the new Batman that much I just might as well. Thanks!
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Omega Man |
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(07/18/08 2:35 AM) |
<< But this voice-over work really isn't fun for me. It's a job.
One that I myself would be thrilled to have. Numerous people (including a LOT of total strangers), after hearing me speak (on the phone, over intercom systems), have asked me, "Why aren't you in radio? Why aren't you doing commercials?" This has happened all my adult life. Everywhere I've worked that required public announcements or recorded messages, the bosses have shanghaied me into doing them, whether I wanted to or not. At a credit union I worked at in the '80s, the director pulled me off my regular job (night computer operator) and made me the PBX operator/receptionist (!) simply because of the sound of my voice. And yeah, I can do a number of accents, too. I often cringe in horror when I hear some of the voice talent on local radio here in Memphis... It's that bad. You should just hear some of these local rubes trying to do Irish accents for the St. Patrick's Day sales ads! How did they get their job? How did they break into the biz? Do you have to be in LA or New York? Do you have to have connections? |
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Omega Man |
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(07/18/08 2:51 AM) |
Um... Sorry to go off on a tangent here in the DARK KNIGHT thread.
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capmonte |
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(07/18/08 6:47 AM) |
It's really late, but I just got back from a 12: 15 showing of Dark Knight. Got there at 10, and there were tons of people milling around in the lobby
and food court area. Never been to a midnight showing in my life, so I was stunned. I was on the phone with my best friend, telling her to hurry up, as the
ushers were calling for the various midnight shows and marched groups of purple-suited clad fans to their respective showings. I bumped into a student of mine,
who had graduated in May, who is probably the biggest Batman fan I've ever seen (previously in the year, she had provided me with a massive "I Believe
in Harvey Dent" poster who adorns my wall and a bumper sticker I proudly bear on my car). She was jumping up and down and bubbling with excitement that
she had already seen it in IMAX and loved it...better than Batman Begins...Ledger is amazing...Harvey Dent...etc. etc. etc. This girl was practically foaming
at the mouth in her enthusiasm for Dark Knight. Quite an experience!
"The important question is not, are there aliens on other worlds? No. The important question is, do they have ray guns?"
Last Edited By: capmonte
07/18/08 6:51 AM.
Edited 2 times.
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Omega Man |
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(07/18/08 8:00 AM) |
Wow, Cap -- a female Batman fanatic? That's pretty... cool, actually.
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