Sharon Tate murderer Atkins reported dying

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Author	Comment
Ted Newsom		#61	[-]
(05/10/08 10:37 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	"But what about receiving a punishment that fits the crime, regardless of getting rehabilitated? If you take a life (or numerous lives), then you forfeit yours. Be it the Death Penalty, or Life Imprisonment -- a convicted and actual murderer deserves no freedom, no natural life. " Oh? OK... you're at home with a fictional wife and kids, a stranger comes in the back door, and you shoot him. You thought he was a burglar, or a rapist, or a child-stealer. Turns out he wasn't. Do you send youself to prison for the rest of your life? OK... you volunteer for armed service. In the course of action, you kill several "enemy" people and a couple dozen who you know had nothing to do with war. You come home. Some guy comes up to you in a 7-Eleven and asks for a buck. You flip out and strangle him because you thought he was one of the enemy. Does the judge and jury give you the death sentence? Life without parole? A stranger comes to you to fix his broken leg. You do, and he leaves. You're arrested and tried for murder, conspiracy and treason for assisting John Wilkes Booth escape. Do you get life in prison (The answer here is, yes.) Life is not simple. Justice has to be tempered with mercy and common sense. The statue of Justice holds a sword in one hand and a balance in the other, not a Howitzer.
blackbiped		#62	[-]
(05/11/08 1:30 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	Those examples all have mitigating factors that were, to me anyway, clearly absent in the Tate-LaBianca massacres. I think that there are some cases in which life imprisonment without the remotest possibility of parole is a fitting punishment, and this is one of them. Legend, oh legend, the third wheel legend...always in the way. My MySpace page BumsCorner.com Last Edited By: blackbiped 05/11/08 1:37 AM. Edited 2 times.
Ted Newsom		#63	[-]
(05/11/08 3:01 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	OK... how about an adulthood through middle age and approaching death which appears-- to those who actually know her and can observe her-- to be one of life-saving, of giving, and of benefit to society? That seems a big "mitigating factor" to me. No person who has any first-hand knowledge of her life has anything but positive things to say about her as a person, or about what she has done. She was one of a number of people under the drug-fueled, mesmeric will of a psychopath, and acted in bloody abandon, 30 years ago. Those who have observed her since-- doctors and penal officers-- say she is no longer a threat to society, and note that she's served society even within confinement. Cons will talk the talk; she apparently walks the walk, too. (I was going to quote Scripture again, but, heck, I give.)
Jeffrey Allen Rydell		#64	[-]
(05/11/08 3:24 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	Ted Newsom wrote: She was one of a number of people under the drug-fueled, mesmeric will of a psychopath Eh, ol' Chuck's got nuthin' on Khorda.
Ted Newsom		#65	[-]
(05/11/08 4:03 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	DAT'S DA GUY!!!
Joe Karlosi		#66	[-]
(05/11/08 6:50 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	Ted Newsom wrote: OK... how about an adulthood through middle age and approaching death which appears-- to those who actually know her and can observe her-- to be one of life-saving, of giving, and of benefit to society? That seems a big "mitigating factor" to me. No person who has any first-hand knowledge of her life has anything but positive things to say about her as a person, or about what she has done. She was one of a number of people under the drug-fueled, mesmeric will of a psychopath, and acted in bloody abandon, 30 years ago. Those who have observed her since-- doctors and penal officers-- say she is no longer a threat to society, and note that she's served society even within confinement. Cons will talk the talk; she apparently walks the walk, too. (I was going to quote Scripture again, but, heck, I give.) We don't know if Scripture is the Real Deal, so that's moot. And yes, I still believe in the existence of a Creator. I've already addressed what you're posing, though. I think Atkins is indeed reformed and sorry, and would love to turn her negatives into positives. I get all of that. Bottom Line for me remains that it's all beside the point, and it's too late for that, Babe. She took lives, including that of an unborn child. All your other examples and scenarios above are not at all the same as what Susan Atkins and her pals did. Actual self defense should be pardonable (for example, say if Sharon Tate had struggled with her attacker and survived and killed Atkins in defense). Being enlisted in the army and having to "kill the enemy, including innocents" during war is sanctioned by the government. Life is not simple. Justice has to be tempered with mercy and common sense. The statue of Justice holds a sword in one hand and a balance in the other, not a Howitzer. The Justice System, sorry to say, and especially in recent years, is a joke. Too many murderers get away with it. You're talking to someone who (appearances in this particular topic not withstanding) has ALWAYS seen matters as complicated, and life itself as being a complex series of grays instead of all blacks and whites (kind of what Claude Rains explains in THE WOLF MAN). I used to get into soooooo many debates in school and what not, and was always the fella doing what you are right here, Ted. I will admit though, as I grow older I'm getting less charitable or complex in reasoning on issues like this. For instance, when I was 22 in 1984, there was the case of Bernard Goetz, who shot a group of punks attempting to rob him on a train. Back in the day, I wanted Goetz to have the book thrown at him; today at 46, I applaud Goetz for stepping on those cockroaches. ---------------------- "It's MORE ... than a hobby!" Last Edited By: Joe Karlosi 05/11/08 6:58 AM. Edited 2 times.
DonM435		#67	[-]
(05/11/08 11:10 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	The victims have all been model corpses, giving no offense to society all those years. Let's parole them instead. Oops, we can't!
Ted Newsom		#68	[-]
(05/11/08 11:31 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	Again, guys, there is a reason the symbol of Justice is the way she is: the sword of vengeance in one hand, but the balance of right and wrong in the other hand-- and she's blindfolded. "Justice" cannot be served with passion, and passion is the operative word in this case. For good and bad to be weighed properly and judged, Justice must be blind-- you weigh the facts, not the emotions. The enormity of this case was appalling; Susan Atkins' life since then has been repentant, positive, even exemplary.
Joe Karlosi		#69	[-]
(05/11/08 11:51 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	The facts are that Susan Atkins murdered Sharon Tate and her unborn baby, defiantly laughing all the while, (and even in court after), and that she ignored Tate's desperate pleas by saying to her: "Bitch, I don't care about you or your baby." And just think -- we might have been able to wish both a Happy Mother's Day today. Rot, Sue. That's "justice"! ---------------------- "It's MORE ... than a hobby!" Last Edited By: Joe Karlosi 05/11/08 12:10 PM. Edited 3 times.
blackbiped		#70	[-]
(05/11/08 11:58 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	I don't agree that wanting to free Susan Atkins from prison is the thoughtful, rational attitude as opposed to those who think she should remain there. The facts were weighed by blind justice during her trial, and she was sentenced to death. And although the death penalty was subsequently abolished, the intention of the judge and jury through whom justice was served in her case was that, due to the enormity of her crimes, she be permanently removed from society. Legend, oh legend, the third wheel legend...always in the way. My MySpace page BumsCorner.com
n0s4a2		#71	[-]
(05/11/08 5:49 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	No one is wanting to free Atkins except Atkins and her family. It seems no one can discuss the ramifications of the case without a "lynch mob" forming-- people eager to vent their general anger at someone who "deserves" it. When Chalize Theron won an oscar for "Monster", conservative pundits howled that the movie was "mollycoddling" a killer because it examined her motives and feelings rather than just condemning her. Frequently internet posters will take the opportunity to work themselves into a self-righteous frenzy of moral outrage over some long-settled criminal case to prove how "good" they are by how much they want to make a "bad" person suffer-- they delight in recounting the pornographic details of the crime, and then going over the punishments they would like to inflict, usually ending with burning in "hell". Ironically, this is exactly the mindset of Manson himself as he paces his cell endlessly, brooding over the "justice" he wants to mete out against those who "have it coming". At least two of the Manson women have expressed deep regret over what they did; they seem to be genuinely different people today than they were 39 years ago. Through the workings of time and fate, they no longer want to hurt anyone. Immature persons are especially vulnerable to the influence of aggressive domintant males, and can be made to think it is not only OK to kill, but moral to do so. This is why military recruiters prefer 18 and 19 year olds, whose consciences allow them to believe an enemy is sub-human, a "pig", as long as an authority figure tells them so. Anyone might commit murder if they were teenaged runaways who found themselves bereft of family, taken in by an insular clan led by a charismatic psychopath and stripped of all connections to civilized society. And anyone can come to a realization about their past attitudes, and in time, develop compassion.
Jojo Lapin X		#72	[-]
(05/11/08 6:00 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	What? Is it no longer considered proper to want to drape yourself in the entrails of convicted criminals and drink their blood from their skulls? Is there then to be no accepted outlet for these feelings?
zogstar67		#73	[-]
(05/11/08 6:24 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	n0s4a2 wrote: No one is wanting to free Atkins except Atkins and her family. I was under the distinct impression that Ted does. Or at least that he thinks it should be on the table. If he doesn't, then what is the disagreement about? There have been a couple of "string her up" posts, but most that I've seen have been, "Maybe she's reformed and remorseful, but she still needs to stay in prison." That's the camp I'm in and I don't really see the lynch mob analogy. "Synthetic Flesh!" Chris Herzog zogstar67@yahoo.com
Ted Newsom		#74	[-]
(05/11/08 8:49 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	I do, Chris. I've seen the original crime scene photos, and they're horrifying, sad and disgusting. If Sharon Tate was my sister, or lover, or friend, I'd have demanded the death penalty or instituted it myself, come hell or high water. And that's why, had I been any of those, the law would never allow me to decide the fate of the accused criminal. The reactionary attitude I see here is saddening to me. And it is truly "reactionary," that is, an emotional reaction to this situation rather than a weighing of the pros and cons. No one here has a horse in this race: there's no "Sharon Tate was my beloved cousin!" outcries or "Abagail Folger was my mom."
GaryP11111		#75	[-]
(05/11/08 9:34 PM) Burgomaster Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	The reactionary attitude I see here is saddening to me. And it is truly "reactionary," that is, an emotional reaction to this situation rather than a weighing of the pros and cons. No one here has a horse in this race: there's no "Sharon Tate was my beloved cousin!" outcries or "Abagail Folger was my mom." I'm a reactionary. I know reactionary when I see it. This isn't reactionary. The pros and cons are being weighed but the conclusion is simply not the one you seem to prefer. Susan Atkins violated a social contract with the culture she live in. That contract stipulates that if you take a human life under certain conditions, you forfeit your own life or you spend the rest of your life in prison. The murders in which she participated were particularly bestial and horrific; I, too, have seen the crime scene and the autopsy photos of the victims. Nevertheless I'm happy that Susan Atkins has managed to make something useful of her life within the limitations of the social contract that she voluntarily signed in blood. But the wonderful things Susan Atkins has accomplished while incarcerated cannot bring back Sharon Tate nor any of the other victims. Nor do I believe that Susan Atkins' personal triumphs brought much comfort to Sharon Tate's husband, mother or sisters. But at least the society that placed Susan Atkins behind high walls after commuting her death sentence to life imprisonment gave her the second chance her victims never got. GARY L. PRANGE "Sic gorgiamus allos subjectos nunc." Check out my YouTube Video of the Week! (updated 3-24-08)
yendor1152		#76	[-]
(05/11/08 9:57 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	It's very interesting that none of the Manson "girls" or Charlie himself were considered insane. Atkins, especially, acted like a loony through most of the trial proceedings (including her in-house confession to cell mate Virginia Graham) and the grand jury testimony, yet she was still judged as mentally fit. Without the defense of insanity, then it must be accepted that Atkins and the Family were aware of their actions, knew exactly the consequences of such actions, and realized the import of those actions. The difference between right and wrong was clear. So, 40 years have passed, and Sadie and her cohorts have had a lot of time to think things over. And somewhere along the line, it dawned on them--the Establishment's won. There'd be no helter skelter, after all. Despite the disruptive actions in the courtroom, shaving their heads and "x-ing" themselves from our world, and their continued threats during sentencing, it couldn't stop Time from moving on. Now, they're haggard, sobbing, baggy-eyed women with conservative hairstyles, tailored outfits, dog-eared Bibles, and notorious reputations they'll never be able to escape. If they're truly sorry for their crimes, applying for parole seems an odd way to show it. Frankly, I'd just commit suicide. Rod Last Edited By: yendor1152 05/11/08 10:15 PM. Edited 1 times.
Wich2		#77	[-]
(05/11/08 10:09 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	"No one here has a horse in this race" Ted, I appreciate your thoughts on the topic. But as to the above specific statement, there's - No man is an island, entire of itself every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main... If all men are brothers, it's jake to have an opinion - whatever that may be - about this sister. Best, -Craig W.
Jeffrey Allen Rydell		#78	[-]
(05/11/08 10:40 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	yendor1152 wrote: Now, they're haggard, sobbing, baggy-eyed women with conservative hairstyles, tailored outfits, dog-eared Bibles, and notorious reputations they'll never be able to escape. How could you have possibly neglected to include 'wrinkly buttocked'?
blackbiped		#79	[-]
(05/11/08 11:28 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	I don't consider the desire to keep a convicted murderer behind bars to be a "lynch mob mentality", nor am I all that concerned with the "motives and feelings" of a serial killer. I don't believe I've worked myself into a frenzy over the issue, but if these are signs of "moral outrage", then maybe that's not always a bad thing. Legend, oh legend, the third wheel legend...always in the way. My MySpace page BumsCorner.com
yendor1152		#80	[-]
(05/12/08 12:40 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	Jeffrey Allen Rydell wrote: yendor1152 wrote: Now, they're haggard, sobbing, baggy-eyed women with conservative hairstyles, tailored outfits, dog-eared Bibles, and notorious reputations they'll never be able to escape. How could you have possibly neglected to include 'wrinkly buttocked'? Um, because I wasn't thinking about you when I posted the message? . Rod

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Sharon Tate murderer Atkins reported dying

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